Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help.
Moderator: Moderators
- Mongo
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 471
- Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
- Speed: 18 MPH
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 80
- Preferred Company: DV8/Radical
Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help.
So, we all have conditions we struggle on/don't match up to.
Mine is the medium length (37'-40') heavy volume sport pattern. With my ball roll, any ball not spelled urethane goes sideways out of the pattern. Since I'm LH, moving in and using tons of angle in fronts doesn't really help because they never transition and fresh wet/dry is horrible with big angles.
So, that being said, I need some layouts/ball suggestions that will allow me to keep the ball in a somewhat tight range, but give me more than a Purple Hammer (great ball but carry isn't my friend at this length).
Now, before we get started, don't throw a bunch of low sum/big surface ideas. Been there, done that. Sideways....but bigger sideways.
Right now, I want to try a medium strength symmetrical (diff < .045) with a large VAL (slow transition) and shorter pin (~ 3") with some surface (ex. - IQ Tour with a 3 x 70). I'm open to suggestions, but I'm getting killed on these things and would like to be ~competitive....or at least feel like I have a prayer.
Specs (as a reminder)
350-375 RPM
17-18 MPH
Tilt - 11
Rotation - 55 / 70
Mine is the medium length (37'-40') heavy volume sport pattern. With my ball roll, any ball not spelled urethane goes sideways out of the pattern. Since I'm LH, moving in and using tons of angle in fronts doesn't really help because they never transition and fresh wet/dry is horrible with big angles.
So, that being said, I need some layouts/ball suggestions that will allow me to keep the ball in a somewhat tight range, but give me more than a Purple Hammer (great ball but carry isn't my friend at this length).
Now, before we get started, don't throw a bunch of low sum/big surface ideas. Been there, done that. Sideways....but bigger sideways.
Right now, I want to try a medium strength symmetrical (diff < .045) with a large VAL (slow transition) and shorter pin (~ 3") with some surface (ex. - IQ Tour with a 3 x 70). I'm open to suggestions, but I'm getting killed on these things and would like to be ~competitive....or at least feel like I have a prayer.
Specs (as a reminder)
350-375 RPM
17-18 MPH
Tilt - 11
Rotation - 55 / 70
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
-
- Member
- Posts: 658
- Joined: January 25th, 2017, 3:10 am
- Preferred Company: Radical, Brunswick
- Location: Valrico Florida
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
Do you have anything that lets you play left of 10 on a house shot?
Stacy
- Mongo
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 471
- Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
- Speed: 18 MPH
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 80
- Preferred Company: DV8/Radical
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
My home house shot has a lot of friction up front and is slicker than most.44boyd wrote:Do you have anything that lets you play left of 10 on a house shot?
I've got a Mag 035 (4 x 50) that has been usable when the volume isn't too high, but get north of 25 mL or a really smooth surface and it's jumpy, too.
That being said, not really.
Urethane let's me play the lanes like I need to, but doesn't have enough pop to carry. End result, I'm trying to stuff every shot and can't loosen up.
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
- Mongo
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 471
- Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
- Speed: 18 MPH
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 80
- Preferred Company: DV8/Radical
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
Truth be told, if I could a Mag 035 clone, I'd love to put a shorter/lower pin on it with some surface.
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
-
- Member
- Posts: 658
- Joined: January 25th, 2017, 3:10 am
- Preferred Company: Radical, Brunswick
- Location: Valrico Florida
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
Not trying to come off harsh, but you’re doing lefty wrong. On short patterns you’re trying to cross with righties at the heads and that’s not good. Need to neuter your hand some so you can stay left. I haven’t seen a video of you shooting left of 15 so that’d be the wrong game plan on a sport shot if you can’t keep up the scoring pace as the righties transition. I don’t think there is a ball that’ll fit your current plan of attack that’ll help.
Stacy
- Mongo
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 471
- Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
- Speed: 18 MPH
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 80
- Preferred Company: DV8/Radical
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
Nope.44boyd wrote:Not trying to come off harsh, but you’re doing lefty wrong. On short patterns you’re trying to cross with righties at the heads and that’s not good. Need to neuter your hand some so you can stay left. I haven’t seen a video of you shooting left of 15 so that’d be the wrong game plan on a sport shot if you can’t keep up the scoring pace as the righties transition. I don’t think there is a ball that’ll fit your current plan of attack that’ll help.
I'm staying left and keeping my angles tight. The only time I get right of 12 is on longer patterns, but even then I'm wary of the righty traffic. I generally try to keep my angles tight and avoid covering much lane while avoiding the RH laydown spots.
That being said, on these heavy volume/low taper/37-40' patterns, when my ball comes out of a flatter angle it duckhooks in the friction. I can usually get there with urethane, but can't create any miss and carry is iffy at best.
I either need to find a ball/layout combo where I can stay in a small region of the lane or completely change my ball roll (at least on these medium length/heavy volume patterns).
I'm probably going to start a thread in the coaching area discussing sport conditions and the challenges on the left.
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
-
- Member
- Posts: 658
- Joined: January 25th, 2017, 3:10 am
- Preferred Company: Radical, Brunswick
- Location: Valrico Florida
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
There’s no need to reinvent the wheel, every pro lefty has articles and videos about this. I’ve not seen you post a video playing left of 15, I’d like to see it. Definitely don’t think it’s the arrow.Mongo wrote:
I either need to find a ball/layout combo where I can stay in a small region of the lane or completely change my ball roll (at least on these medium length/heavy volume patterns).
I'm probably going to start a thread in the coaching area discussing sport conditions and the challenges on the left.
Stacy
- Mongo
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 471
- Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
- Speed: 18 MPH
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 80
- Preferred Company: DV8/Radical
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
It is telling when you have both Rhino and Ciminelli saying they'd go RH tomorrow if they could.44boyd wrote:
There’s no need to reinvent the wheel, every pro lefty has articles and videos about this. I’ve not seen you post a video playing left of 15, I’d like to see it. Definitely don’t think it’s the arrow.
Butturff is a mutant and doesn't count.
I need to organize my thoughts and post this stuff in a different thread. I could use some help. Turn 50 next year and wouldn't mind bowling with the old guys some.
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
-
- Member
- Posts: 658
- Joined: January 25th, 2017, 3:10 am
- Preferred Company: Radical, Brunswick
- Location: Valrico Florida
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
You’re in Colorado correct? Id look up Mike Dias Gold Coach and he bowls on the 50 tour. He might be able to give you some insight.
Stacy
- Mongo
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 471
- Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
- Speed: 18 MPH
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 80
- Preferred Company: DV8/Radical
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
About 16 hours east....Kentucky.44boyd wrote:You’re in Colorado correct? Id look up Mike Dias Gold Coach and he bowls on the 50 tour. He might be able to give you some insight.
I could go bother Jim Merrill again. I've worked with Andy Parker in Dayton a little, too.
To be frank, I'd love to get a full assessment (game, arsenal, strategy, etc.) from somebody who I trust. Full breakdown of what I'm working with vs. what I'll see at PBA50 stops and other stuff.
I'd like a take a decent swing at some senior stuff next year, but, right now, I'm not there. I need some brutal honesty.
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
-
- Member
- Posts: 658
- Joined: January 25th, 2017, 3:10 am
- Preferred Company: Radical, Brunswick
- Location: Valrico Florida
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
Go see Mitch Beasley in Nashville.
Stacy
- Mongo
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 471
- Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
- Speed: 18 MPH
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 80
- Preferred Company: DV8/Radical
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
I've got a couple of friends at EBI, might shake the tree.44boyd wrote:Go see Mitch Beasley in Nashville.
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
-
- Member
- Posts: 658
- Joined: January 25th, 2017, 3:10 am
- Preferred Company: Radical, Brunswick
- Location: Valrico Florida
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
You throw the ball well, just got to keep you left of 10 with the light oil on the 50.
Stacy
- Mongo
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 471
- Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
- Speed: 18 MPH
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 80
- Preferred Company: DV8/Radical
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
I can handle long and short, it's the middle lengths that own me.44boyd wrote:You throw the ball well, just got to keep you left of 10 with the light oil on the 50.
Well, specifically medium length, higher volume sport patterns with very little front/back taper.....which seems to be most sport patterns I bowl on.
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
if you are hitting past the pocket on the left, move back on the lanes. If your hitting the head pin, move up.
-
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 1386
- Joined: December 14th, 2014, 3:08 am
- Preferred Company: Radical
- Location: San Juan, PR
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
Have you tried Urethane with a big core like the Widow or Hot Cell?
Silver Level Coach
Kegel KCMP1 and KCMP2 Completed /Approved Exam
Kegel KCMP3 Completed
Kegel Certified Pro Shop Operator
Free agent
Kegel KCMP1 and KCMP2 Completed /Approved Exam
Kegel KCMP3 Completed
Kegel Certified Pro Shop Operator
Free agent
- Mongo
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 471
- Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
- Speed: 18 MPH
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 80
- Preferred Company: DV8/Radical
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
I do, but I've got a Purple Hammer and it's just all around better, just not quite enough when oil is north of 25 mL. Need about 50 more RPM.TonyPR wrote:Have you tried Urethane with a big core like the Widow or Hot Cell?
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
-
- BCU Graduate Layouts
- Posts: 47
- Joined: October 2nd, 2016, 8:03 am
- Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2
- Speed: 18,3 off hand
- Rev Rate: 340
- Axis Tilt: 7-10
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: RG No Rules
- Medium Oil Ball: RG Devour
- Light Oil Ball: Hammer BW Spare 2000 grit
- Location: Hannover, Germany
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
did u tried a medium sport shot layout on a ball with a non skit a grip surface ?
im lefty too and my specs are not far away from yours. I took an old motiv primal tv4 and put a
50 x 2,75 x 50 on it. Resurface with 360/500/1000/2000 abralon on deros.
this ball has its defined area and does not overreact on wet/dry, which sportpattern usually have because of the double stripped backends.
most times pin carry is good, but if midlane becomes to dry at all the little ball motion burns off to early so im forced to go deeper on laydown, but unfortunately this surface/layout setup makes bigger angles impossible.
im lefty too and my specs are not far away from yours. I took an old motiv primal tv4 and put a
50 x 2,75 x 50 on it. Resurface with 360/500/1000/2000 abralon on deros.
this ball has its defined area and does not overreact on wet/dry, which sportpattern usually have because of the double stripped backends.
most times pin carry is good, but if midlane becomes to dry at all the little ball motion burns off to early so im forced to go deeper on laydown, but unfortunately this surface/layout setup makes bigger angles impossible.
- Mongo
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 471
- Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
- Speed: 18 MPH
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 80
- Preferred Company: DV8/Radical
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
I've played with a couple of balls with shorter pin to PAP distances ( < 3 " ) but had a higher drill angle on them. I might plug a couple and try some low ratio layouts with a shorter pin.PlainUgly wrote:did u tried a medium sport shot layout on a ball with a non skit a grip surface ?
im lefty too and my specs are not far away from yours. I took an old motiv primal tv4 and put a
50 x 2,75 x 50 on it. Resurface with 360/500/1000/2000 abralon on deros.
this ball has its defined area and does not overreact on wet/dry, which sportpattern usually have because of the double stripped backends.
most times pin carry is good, but if midlane becomes to dry at all the little ball motion burns off to early so im forced to go deeper on laydown, but unfortunately this surface/layout setup makes bigger angles impossible.
I've got a Tremendous with an 80 x 2 x 40, but it's still a bit more downlane than I want. Luckily, I've got plenty of stuff lying around, so might as well try something different.
Maybe a 2 x 50 on a symmetrical? I'll just have to see what I've got gathering dust.
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
Re: Medium length/heavy volume sport patterns kill me. Help
A question from a stone age bowler ...
Thinking about my father and uncle bringing home their first bowling balls from a church bowling center which we being closed. The center allowed guys to bring the ball of their choice home. Some time after that, a two bus trek to a sporting good store to have 3 holes punched into an Ebonite rubber ball Tornado ...
I wonder what they'd think today ...
On the surface, it's like comparing catapults to cruise missiles
Regarding bowling balls ...
Do you maintain a matrix with variables and combinations ??
Kudos to all of you who have command of this subject.
Just wondering ...
[youtube][/youtube]
Thinking about my father and uncle bringing home their first bowling balls from a church bowling center which we being closed. The center allowed guys to bring the ball of their choice home. Some time after that, a two bus trek to a sporting good store to have 3 holes punched into an Ebonite rubber ball Tornado ...
I wonder what they'd think today ...
On the surface, it's like comparing catapults to cruise missiles
Regarding bowling balls ...
Do you maintain a matrix with variables and combinations ??
Kudos to all of you who have command of this subject.
Just wondering ...
[youtube][/youtube]
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John