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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:22 pm Post Number: #21 Post
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Ok, have you tried putting surface on balls that skate too much?

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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:00 pm Post Number: #22 Post
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i have not thats my next thing to try but i might keep them as they are for drier amd shorter ths but pin down pearls and hybirds still seem to give me the best look just might neefs to do these layouts on little bit higher rgs it looks to me like that look gibes me the besy cary it almost checks up as a pim up solid would for others


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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:27 pm Post Number: #23 Post
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Ok, so how do you maintain your equipment? Clean, refresh surface and extract oil?

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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:16 pm Post Number: #24 Post
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just ball cleaner a towel nothing special all new stuff in my bag to soom to resurface or bake or any of that


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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:53 pm Post Number: #25 Post
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Ok so there’s your issue. Surface needs to be refreshed about every 6 games and detox every 30. I’d get some pads and play with different surfaces to see what you can make the ball do. It’s impossible to replicate out of box finish so don’t worry if you need to use a 500 or 1000 to get the same reaction like a 2000 from factory like when it was new. So based on your videos this might be lane shine effecting your reaction down lane. Changing surface can really wake up a ball, you don’t want to have 5 balls set up to do the same thing.

Now if this still is “I want a new ball” thread. I’d recommend the urethane like before, Radical Sizzle and a Brunswick Twist or other entry level ball. You’ve got speed and some revs, asymmetricals react quicker to friction and might look cool but might be too much to score high with. Like I said before, Tom Daugherty (no-thumber) uses urethane and weaker cover symmetricals like the Rebel mostly.

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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:27 am Post Number: #26 Post
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the video shows that it was a iffeal tour sport shot with no head oil left but tones down lane . at this point i get tge vote is for urethane ifs not fir me im not tom i dont thriw it accurate ebought and it readt tge first 10 feet anf rolks for days at this point this post is point less untill i get ky numbers nd go from there but noond seems to undeesrand that i did what i needed ti dk to shoot a strije in that video the video is poinyless and i sill be dealeating it . the video was to show how i camd through the shot not if i struck if tbs ball skated if the balk did this or that. im judt gonna figure out a solution anf go from there . but im not ur typical thumbless bowler and suracw isnt the issue when its not the motion you want


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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:41 am Post Number: #27 Post
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spencer6392 wrote:
the video shows that it was a iffeal tour sport shot with no head oil left but tones down lane . at this point i get tge vote is for urethane ifs not fir me im not tom i dont thriw it accurate ebought and it readt tge first 10 feet anf rolks for days at this point this post is point less untill i get ky numbers nd go from there but noond seems to undeesrand that i did what i needed ti dk to shoot a strije in that video the video is poinyless and i sill be dealeating it . the video was to show how i camd through the shot not if i struck if tbs ball skated if the balk did this or that. im judt gonna figure out a solution anf go from there . but im not ur typical thumbless bowler and suracw isnt the issue when its not the motion you want

Unfortunately the video shows more than you wanted to be seen. Its shows the opposite of what you really wanted. I will stand by what I told you via pm, you need to study ball reactions and learn to identify ball motion. Your carry issues are more about you choice of line to the pocket than it is to layout and ball choice.

The ball needs to roll to strike effectively.

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330 rev rate
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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:41 pm Post Number: #28 Post
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What makes you a special little no thumber? Why the hell are you getting mad when legit tips are given? No matter if you get a whatever ball with whatever layout, reading what it’s doing and changing the surface is going to have to happen.

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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:32 pm Post Number: #29 Post
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i do understand ball reaction its 1 shot of maybe a 1000 i threw hat night thaf ball doesnt give me the motiom i want do to the fact its heavier oil and the 035 pearl isnt ment yo hook the lane clearly noome has listened about the isue at hand and clearly adding surface isnt the issue this is why these pages are useless and people only wanna help with what the may see in 1 video but if i wanna hook the lane thats whaf i wanna do surface will never be the answer if its not the right motion if my ball doest read early enough its gonna skate thats combo of bad ball amd bad layout if the motiom is there that i wanna see and its skating then its the right ball bad suface thats why im frustrated surface isnt the answer like u guys wanna keep saying it is im telling all of yiu guys my issue is early reading whetger yiu guys wanna belive it or not thats on you but when i throw a wrak shinny ball ita gonna go 60 feet when theres no friction in play


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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:37 pm Post Number: #30 Post
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https://www.bowling4less.com/pages/traction-chart

Check out the link, look for the motion you’re want to create and find the ball that meets your requirements. A layout isn’t going to make a continuous or traction ball become skid snap. The shape of the ball is the shape, you adjust it a little early or later with layouts and surface.

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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:02 am Post Number: #31 Post
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all info is from bowler id 17.8 off 415 rev rate 6.6 tilt 55.5 rotation 6 1/4 over 1/4 up


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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:14 am Post Number: #32 Post
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spencer6392 wrote:
all info is from bowler id 17.8 off 415 rev rate 6.6 tilt 55.5 rotation 6 1/4 over 1/4 up


Cut and pasted from http://bowlerid.com/about.html

"BOWLER ID
Determining a bowler's style and stats has been an inaccurate science at best: pro shop operators and coaches have had to rely on cumbersome videography equipment and their own personal perception for calculations. Essentially, it's been a guess. UNTIL NOW.

Powerhouse brings you BowlerID, a revolutionary device that provides true of each individual bowler.

A sensor, small enough to fit under a finger insert, is placed inside the ball and measures the bowler's true rev rate, ball speed, axis tilt, axis rotation and rotation and computes the positive axis point off the hand of the bowler. Additionally, the sensor provides an average ball speed."

The average speed is about 2 mph slower than off the hand.

Is the PAP measured from the bridge or from the center of a three hole grip? It matters.
Any layouts I give will be based off the center of grip located on the bridge.

Sweetspot 100*, 2.4:1 Ratio

Asymmetrical layouts
Totally Strong ................. 60-4-25
Midlane ......................... 50-3.5-30
Benchmark ..................... 70-3-30
Long and Strong .............. 90-3-30
Control ........................... 75-3-50
low flare ......................... 90-2-30

Symmetrical Layouts

Benchmark ..................... xx-4.5-25
Control ........................... xx-4.5-45
low flare (high Rg)............ xx-5.5-30 fingers normal depth
low flare (low Rg)............. xx-2-30 fingers 3.5" to 4" deep

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Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:18 pm Post Number: #33 Post
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all i can say is it was all i had to woek with my pap webt from 5 and a quarter over 5/8 down to 6 and a quater abd 1/4 up and ball speed was 17.8 and if i had to guess it 17 tilt was 6.6 and rotaion might of been a little lol dp to it was hard for me to come tgrew it with the ball being lite but if we combing what i know to now kniw im tilt and ritation can now but things togetger


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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:56 pm Post Number: #34 Post
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Demo balls are not optimum when it comes to being able to use your "A" game release.

I would Not use the Bowler Id PAP to layout any balls that are going to have decent flare. Your PAP will be different.
Low flare layouts and low differential balls like the bowler id balls by all means use the longer PAP measurement.
Take the PAP from your Method for the higher flare setups. Totally Strong, Midlane, Benchmark, Long and Strong and Control.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:57 pm Post Number: #35 Post
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Layouts for the balls asked for via IM ...

Jumped the gun on these recommendations. Will follow up in later posts

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Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Last edited by EricHartwell on Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:55 pm Post Number: #36 Post
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When I have a ball that I think will need a balance hole (soon to be extinct) or holes drilled extra deep I like to first try the ball without the modification. See how it rolls then decide about the modification. In the case of the Kinetic I would drill the finger holes standard depth, install the grips with a minimum amount of glue and test it out. If I think the ball does need the deeper holes, pull the grips, drill the holes to desired depth, and re-install the grips. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:50 pm Post Number: #37 Post
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Back row pins left on pocket hits except the 9 pin for right handers are left by deflection (ball hits the 1,3,5 and 9 pins

A perfect strike: ball hits the 1,3,5 and splits the 8 and the 9 thus exiting the pin deck around board 20

9 pins, 4 pins and the 4-9 for right handers are strong hits meaning the ball penetrated too much: ball hits the 1,3,5 and 8 pins leaving the pin deck way left of board 20

Deflection can be caused mainly because of two factors: ball reaches the roll phase to early and doesn’t have enough energy when going through the pins or ball reaches the roll phase too late or never reaches it, if a ball is hooking into the pocket it will deflect, it must reach the third phase of ball motion, the roll phase.

The name of the game is friction, too much friction will cause the roll phase to be to early. To create less friction we can speed up our ball speed, back off on rpms, increase axis tilt and/or rotation, loft the ball or change to a ball with a cleaner cover and/or smoother surface.

To little friction the ball reaches the roll phase too late or never does. To crate more friction we can bring our ball speed down, increase rpms, lower axis tilt and/or rotation, decrease loft or change to a ball with a more aggressive coverstock and/or more surface.

Layouts and core designs will help too but as you can see there are many different combinations of other adjustments you can use. Changing the launch angle and pattern exit is also another adjustment. First understand why the ball is deflecting or hitting too strong then adjust.


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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:30 pm Post Number: #38 Post
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my miss has always been it rolling out and hitting like a wet noodle thats why im now gonna try throwing some aysyms and going from tgere by big miss last year was the 4 pin and 7 pin this year has been the solid ringing 10 or flat 10 or a solid 8 and those are with balls outside my method


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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:11 pm Post Number: #39 Post
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Ok, going by what you say, select an asymmetrical with a cover designed to go long, the Black Widow Gold comes to mind. Drill it so that the PSA (mass bias) ends up where the thumb would be, use the pin to pap and VAL angle of the symmetrical control lauout (for house shot) or benchmark (for sport). For layout purposes use the center of grip PAP of what your “thumb in” span would be, lay it out like if you were going to drill a thumb but don’t drill it. Report back...


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 Post subject: Re: thumbless bowler ideas
 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:53 am Post Number: #40 Post
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going to be drilling a tenacicy here in tge next couple days just got home from bowling shot 652 throwing pin down hammer rebel and last game 252 with my mag 035 pearli seem to be falling in love with the pin down as it tends to allow the ball to be clean through the heads but tread early


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