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 Post subject: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:07 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Hello Eric Hartwell, one of my best students needs your layout expertise:
-First name: Erick (just like you)
-Age: 12
-Current ball weight: 12 lbs
-Left handed/two hander/no thumb
-PAP from center of bridge: 6.75 x 1/4 down
-Tilt: about 5* negative
-Clips fingers (bridge) on a pin down ball
-Axis rotation 45*
-Speed OTH 18.3 mph
-RPMs (tape method counting spins) 522 rpms
-Bowls Sport (WTBA)
-Sport average: 160s and rising very quickly, started two handed bowling less than a year ago, coached him myself from day one.

Want to gift him two used balls 14 lbs
-GB2
-Rebel

Please suggest pin to paps and VAL angles
Was thinking GB2 for fresh and Rebel for when there’s a spot where to throw it at
GB2 500/2000
Rebel 500/2000/4000


Please advise


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 Post subject: Re: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:16 am Post Number: #2 Post
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Negative tilt??


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 Post subject: Re: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:20 am Post Number: #3 Post
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Yes, negative tilt, we see it every now and then on no thumb two handers.


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 Post subject: Re: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:26 am Post Number: #4 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Hello Eric Hartwell, one of my best students needs your layout expertise:
-First name: Erick (just like you)
-Age: 12
-Current ball weight: 12 lbs
-Left handed/two hander/no thumb
-PAP from center of bridge: 6.75 x 1/4 down
-Tilt: about 5* negative
-Clips fingers (bridge) on a pin down ball
-Axis rotation 45*
-Speed OTH 18.3 mph
-RPMs (tape method counting spins) 522 rpms
-Bowls Sport (WTBA)
-Sport average: 160s and rising very quickly, started two handed bowling less than a year ago, coached him myself from day one.

Want to gift him two used balls 14 lbs
-GB2
-Rebel

Please suggest pin to paps and VAL angles
Was thinking GB2 for fresh and Rebel for when there’s a spot where to throw it at
GB2 500/2000
Rebel 500/2000/4000


Please advise

It will be interesting to see how the heavier ball affects his release specs.

GB2 .................... xx-5-60
Rebel .................. xx-5.5-45

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:45 am Post Number: #5 Post
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Thank you Eric. Those layouts will most likely track on fingers... should I not worry about that?


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 Post subject: Re: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:55 am Post Number: #6 Post
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Ok drilled them and they seem flare safe as the pins are above and to the left of a line from RF to PAP.


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 Post subject: Re: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:28 am Post Number: #7 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Thank you Eric. Those layouts will most likely track on fingers... should I not worry about that?

The negative tilt is causing the initial track to be on the fingers. There is nothing you can do with layout to change that. My guess is that he is pulling the fingers across the top of the ball at release.

Just my 2 cents here...
Teach him about the affects of tilt and rotation.
Teach him how to identify tilt and rotation.

As an example my softball pitching daughter has taken up bowling and rolling with the 2 handed approach, no thumb.
For some background she mastered many different pitches all involving different spin and she had knowledge of tilt and rotation because of the drop curve. That ball would curve first then drop off the table as the tilt collapsed. Now that I think about it we should have called it the curve drop 2 different distinctive ball motions on the same pitch.
All I told her was to make sure she had tilt in her bowling release. She is rolling the ball with 15-20* of tilt. She figured out the hand position.
By the time I was 12 years old I could throw every pitch in the book including the knuckle ball with no spin. I understood spin and how to change it. I figured it out just by trying. Give him the information and let him roll with it.

2 fingers no thumb can also use layouts like the full roller layout.
When there is no thumb hole to worry about being flare safe I think this can open up layout options.
I will have to give this some more thought.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:10 am Post Number: #8 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
2 fingers no thumb can also use layouts like the full roller layout.
When there is no thumb hole to worry about being flare safe I think this can open up layout options.
I will have to give this some more thought.

I have put full roller layouts on 2 finger bowlers. Symmetrical balls have all seemed to change the PAP to above the fingers with the track angled as would be expected. Have not had much success doing it with asymmetrical balls (don't know why but they still clip fingers for most bowlers I have tried it with).


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 Post subject: Re: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:01 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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I layed out the balls using the center of bridge as the grip center, both ended with the pin up and to the left, the 5.5 x 45 pin ended way up. Will see how they roll. Where your layout recommendations to be done using the center of bridge or a pseudo span as center of grip?


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 Post subject: Re: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:24 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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sounds right to me. He is only a 1/4 inch down so his pin placements will tend to be way up there unless you use a large val angle. his pap is also way over so it ia understandable that the pin ends up way left. I'm 5 1/2 straight over and my pins and way up there even with a 50° val angle


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 Post subject: Re: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:44 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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How do these layouts from bridge center roll for you gunso? I drilled a similar Cyclone for my two handed daughter and it rolls great, I call it “cg above bridge” :lol:

If I recall you are also a negative tilt bowler, correct?


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 Post subject: Re: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:56 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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Imagine this...
Using the same center of span put a three hole grip over the top of a 2 hole grip. The 2 fingers sit neatly between the fingers and thumb of the 3 hole grip.
Now visualize the layout measured from that same grip center.
The distance from the grip centers to the Pin is the same.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:27 am Post Number: #13 Post
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I understand this but for release purposes the palm of the hand will sit lower in relation to the pin on the two finger grip than on the 3 hole thumb in grip. This is an interesting topic and I have seen that Tom Daugherty has drilled two balls (probably more) with this type of layout saw a Kinetic Amethyst on Instagram and a Web Tour on a YouTube video review:

https://youtu.be/NnCPoMyuN9s

Like I said, the Cyclone I layed out like this works great for my daughter, will report back on rpm kid as soon as I study the reaction on different patterns.


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 Post subject: Re: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:29 am Post Number: #14 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
I understand this but for release purposes the palm of the hand will sit lower in relation to the pin on the two finger grip than on the 3 hole thumb in grip. This is an interesting topic and I have seen that Tom Daugherty has drilled two balls (probably more) with this type of layout saw a Kinetic Amethyst on Instagram and a Web Tour on a YouTube video review:

https://youtu.be/NnCPoMyuN9s

Like I said, the Cyclone I layed out like this works great for my daughter, will report back on rpm kid as soon as I study the reaction on different patterns.

It is not about where the palm is. The ball doesn't know or care if your palm is anywhere or if even you have a palm or not, examples Throbot or E.A.R.L.

It is about the PAP and the initial track.

The grip center is basically the center of removed mass. This the ball does know and care about because it is affecting the physical properties of the ball.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:19 am Post Number: #15 Post
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Interesting, I see and understand what you are teaching me, PAP and robot example did the trick. Thank you, now I see.


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 Post subject: Re: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:13 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
How do these layouts from bridge center roll for you gunso? I drilled a similar Cyclone for my two handed daughter and it rolls great, I call it “cg above bridge” :lol:

If I recall you are also a negative tilt bowler, correct?


They roll just fine and much better than when I throw other peoples equipments. I have always drilled my bowling balls from my pap, it doesn't matter if I calculate it from the center of fingers or from pseudo span. My pap is in the same spot.

I sometimes roll the ball with negative tilt, however my pap has changed from 6 3/8 over and 2 1/2 down to 5 1/2 straight over from my excaggerated negative tilt days. I usually only track over the fingers now when I am throwing it with low rotation.


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 Post subject: Re: Fun one for you Eric
 Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:21 am Post Number: #17 Post
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Ok so Erick tried his new GB2 XX x 5 x 60 on the second and third game of league today pro anvil lanes, WTBA 2018 Rome. First game (game 2) shot in the 160’s as he was trying to figure out the ball, this score is more or less average for him. Second game (game 3) shot his first ever 200 in league 202. Ball allows him to open up the lane and has a smooth but strong continuous reaction. He liked it very much and when he got it in the pocket pins exploded with messengers and all and the side kicks on this house aren’t bouncy at all. I was impressed with the reaction too plus it got the track off his finger holes. Nice job Eric.


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