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 Post subject: Pin to Pap Distances and Ball Reaction
 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:49 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Perhaps I’ve missed the part where this is covered, if I have please forgive me.

In the reading I’ve seen the areas discussing PIN to PAP distances for Asym and Sym for High Tilt and Low Tilt but nothing for Normal.

For Asym Low Tilt 2 1/4” to 4” change ball direction and read friction, 4-5” play straighter - Mo’ Reads

Asym - Most Flare at PIN to PAP 2.75 to 25, 4.5 More Angular, 4.75 Sooner forward roll

Where can I get additional information? I have addition info for High Tilt players, looking for Nor,al Tilt players - between 13* - 17*

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to Pap Distances and Ball Reaction
 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:50 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Jmc1972 wrote:
Perhaps I’ve missed the part where this is covered, if I have please forgive me.

In the reading I’ve seen the areas discussing PIN to PAP distances for Asym and Sym for High Tilt and Low Tilt but nothing for Normal.

For Asym Low Tilt 2 1/4” to 4” change ball direction and read friction, 4-5” play straighter - Mo’ Reads

Asym - Most Flare at PIN to PAP 2.75 to 25, 4.5 More Angular, 4.75 Sooner forward roll

Where can I get additional information? I have addition info for High Tilt players, looking for Nor,al Tilt players - between 13* - 17*

Thanks!

Everyone goes by the charts in the Dual Angle instructions by Mo. Scroll down the the track flare diagrams for asymmetrical and then symmetrical. http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... _Guide.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to Pap Distances and Ball Reaction
 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:42 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
Everyone goes by the charts in the Dual Angle instructions by Mo. Scroll down the the track flare diagrams for asymmetrical and then symmetrical. http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... _Guide.pdf


I understand the chart. There’s also their verbage. Are you not in the least bit interested in the.”why” and the “what exactly does it do”.

I’m the kind of person who would like to know, for example, that for someone with normal tilt between 12* and 17* a pin to PAP of 4” provides “A” while a distance of 4 1/2 provides “B”

Much like the it’s been determines for low and high players.


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to Pap Distances and Ball Reaction
 Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:10 am Post Number: #4 Post
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Jmc1972 wrote:

I understand the chart. There’s also their verbage. Are you not in the least bit interested in the.”why” and the “what exactly does it do”.

I’m the kind of person who would like to know, for example, that for someone with normal tilt between 12* and 17* a pin to PAP of 4” provides “A” while a distance of 4 1/2 provides “B”
Much like the it’s been determines for low and high players.

Maybe I don't exactly get the question, but I have done a lot of studying on the why and what. You also have to factor in the effect the Drilling angle and VAL angle have on the pin to PAP. A 90* drilling angle will make the ball less asymmetrical and the flare patterns will become more like those of a symmetrical ball while a 50* drilling angle will have the same or more flare as the pin to PAP increases. There are no hard fast rules. The strength of the core as well as the shape of the core will also effect the results. With different locations of the finger holes you will get different results from one core to another as the shape of the core changes, the results will also vary from ball to ball, etc.

Very short examples here using the same ball to give slight idea (not even touching the surface):

There was a USBC Bowling Acadamy video where Earl the robot threw 3 balls (symmetrical). one with a 3" pin, one with a 4" pin, and one with a 5" pin. Bill Sempsrott (Blueprint here on bowlingchat) reviewed it in one of his articles on Bowling This Month and since there was no noticible difference on the roll of the balls he used his ball motion simulation software tool that went to market as Powerhouse Blueprint to re-test the results. In a condensed version there was about 1' difference in the rolling transition distance. (Bill explains that what that means is that the 3 shots were never more than 1/2" away from each other at any location down the entire lane).

Just for an example from his cad experiment:
3" pin to PAP had a rolling transition distance of 56.92
4" pin to PAP had a rolling transition distance of 56.32
5" pin to PAP had a rolling transition distance of 55.85
He also tested 1" and 6".
6" pin to PAP had a rolling transition distance of 55.14 (low flare position)
1" pin to PAP had a rolling transition distance of 59.08 (low flare postition)

On asymmetrical balls he proved what Mo has said all along on this site. Asymmetrical balls are still high flaring with 5" and 6" pin to PAPs.
The low flare layouts went longer because the bowties were longer. The correlation is not linear. After you reach a certain amount of flare, the bowtie distance is so close to each other that there is hardly any difference between them. You might get a large change between 1" and 3" for example (asymmetrical) and hardly any difference between 3" and 5" for example.

The flare charts are pretty much for normal 12* to 17*. Normal can use most any pin distance where High tilt prefer long pin to PAP and low tilt prefer shorter. Normal have it both ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to Pap Distances and Ball Reaction
 Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:52 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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FYI:
In Bowling This Month there a entire article about Pin to PAP distance.

Pin-to-PAP Distance and Its Effect on Bowling Ball Motion: An exploration of its importance (or lack thereof) By: Bill Sempsrott

https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/bowling-tips/pin-to-pap-distance-and-its-effect-on-bowling-ball-motion/

Article Contents

1. The effect of pin-to-PAP distance
2. Some background
3. The USBC pin position EARL video
4. Repeating the experiment in Blueprint
5. Extending the experiment to use drilled balls
6. Examining a wider range of pin-to-PAP distances
7. What about asymmetrical balls?
8. Early and smooth vs. long and strong?
9. Closing thoughts

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 Post subject: Re: Pin to Pap Distances and Ball Reaction
 Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:19 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
Maybe I don't exactly get the question, but I have done a lot of studying on the why and what. You also have to factor in the effect the Drilling angle and VAL angle have on the pin to PAP. A 90* drilling angle will make the ball less asymmetrical and the flare patterns will become more like those of a symmetrical ball while a 50* drilling angle will have the same or more flare as the pin to PAP increases. There are no hard fast rules. The strength of the core as well as the shape of the core will also effect the results. With different locations of the finger holes you will get different results from one core to another as the shape of the core changes, the results will also vary from ball to ball, etc.

Very short examples here using the same ball to give slight idea (not even touching the surface):

There was a USBC Bowling Acadamy video where Earl the robot threw 3 balls (symmetrical). one with a 3" pin, one with a 4" pin, and one with a 5" pin. Bill Sempsrott (Blueprint here on bowlingchat) reviewed it in one of his articles on Bowling This Month and since there was no noticible difference on the roll of the balls he used his ball motion simulation software tool that went to market as Powerhouse Blueprint to re-test the results. In a condensed version there was about 1' difference in the rolling transition distance. (Bill explains that what that means is that the 3 shots were never more than 1/2" away from each other at any location down the entire lane).

Just for an example from his cad experiment:
3" pin to PAP had a rolling transition distance of 56.92
4" pin to PAP had a rolling transition distance of 56.32
5" pin to PAP had a rolling transition distance of 55.85
He also tested 1" and 6".
6" pin to PAP had a rolling transition distance of 55.14 (low flare position)
1" pin to PAP had a rolling transition distance of 59.08 (low flare postition)

On asymmetrical balls he proved what Mo has said all along on this site. Asymmetrical balls are still high flaring with 5" and 6" pin to PAPs.
The low flare layouts went longer because the bowties were longer. The correlation is not linear. After you reach a certain amount of flare, the bowtie distance is so close to each other that there is hardly any difference between them. You might get a large change between 1" and 3" for example (asymmetrical) and hardly any difference between 3" and 5" for example.

The flare charts are pretty much for normal 12* to 17*. Normal can use most any pin distance where High tilt prefer long pin to PAP and low tilt prefer shorter. Normal have it both ways.


Thank you!!! This is precisely what I was looking for!!! Essentially the charts are the absolute best tools to use due to the engineering and testing used to develop them. I can 1000% accept answers like that. I typically have a hard time with “it’s just that way” kind of things.

It seems the deeper I get into studying the more questions arise while at the same time the true respect for the “brains” behind the equipment, methodology, and every other aspect of this sport come to light.

Again, thank you!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to Pap Distances and Ball Reaction
 Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:20 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:
FYI:
In Bowling This Month there a entire article about Pin to PAP distance.

Pin-to-PAP Distance and Its Effect on Bowling Ball Motion: An exploration of its importance (or lack thereof) By: Bill Sempsrott

https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/bowling-tips/pin-to-pap-distance-and-its-effect-on-bowling-ball-motion/

Article Contents

1. The effect of pin-to-PAP distance
2. Some background
3. The USBC pin position EARL video
4. Repeating the experiment in Blueprint
5. Extending the experiment to use drilled balls
6. Examining a wider range of pin-to-PAP distances
7. What about asymmetrical balls?
8. Early and smooth vs. long and strong?
9. Closing thoughts


Thank you! This will definately be archived for deeper study!


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