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 Post subject: Help with a high tilt bowler
 Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:49 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Hi there,
I need help with layouts for a bowler, these are the specs I got from his video
Release speed 18mph
Axis tilt 22 degrees
Axis rotation 80 degrees
Revs 305

I think that gives him 80 degree totals and 1 to 1.5 benchmark ratio but I cant work out the rest.

Appreciate any help


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 Post subject: Re: Help with a high tilt bowler
 Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:33 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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The basic Asymmetrical arsenal layouts...

Totally Strong ......... 1:1 ratio ...... 30-5.25-30 P4
Midlane .................. 1:2 ratio ...... 20-5-40 P3
Benchmark ............. 1:1.5 ratio .... 32-4.5-48
Long and Strong .......1:1 ratio ...... 50-4.5-50
Control ................... 1:2 ratio ...... 33-4.5-67

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Help with a high tilt bowler
 Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:15 am Post Number: #3 Post
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With stats like that add surface also.

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* MPH @ aarows
* RPM
AR *
AT *
PAP 3 3/4"
(* rebuilding)

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson


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 Post subject: Re: Help with a high tilt bowler
 Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:35 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
The basic Asymmetrical arsenal layouts...

Totally Strong ......... 1:1 ratio ...... 30-5.25-30 P4
Midlane .................. 1:2 ratio ...... 20-5-40 P3
Benchmark ............. 1:1.5 ratio .... 32-4.5-48
Long and Strong .......1:1 ratio ...... 50-4.5-50
Control ................... 1:2 ratio ...... 33-4.5-67



A couple of questions always comes to mind:

People post their stats and ask for layout help.

But, in most cases they often never state whether they are looking for layout help for their weekly house shot league or whether they need help with ball reaction on competitive conditions.

I think we can all agree most THS provide enough friction for even the low rev rate / high tilt player to
find ball reaction on the lane.

My next question Eric, are the layouts you provide for competitive conditions?

I kind of feel like there is an assumption that the bowler needs help on competitive conditions, even though it isn't identified in their post.

This is by no means a jab at what Eric and others provide for the bowling chat community in the Mo & Friends Forum. (a lot of time has passed since Mo actually contributed to this forum......not sure it shouldn't be changed to Eric & Friends)

Thanks for all you do Eric!

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"Simplify the Motion.....Maximize the Results"


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 Post subject: Re: Help with a high tilt bowler
 Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:23 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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JMerrell wrote:
My next question Eric, are the layouts you provide for competitive conditions?

What Mo liked to do was to analyze how skilled a bowler was before he gave a "Layout Range". The object was to keep all of the balls usable and avoid condition specific layouts in his recommendations. In the Ratio Guide, it uses 0.5 above and 0.5 below the benchmark ratio in all of the examples (arbitrary number chosen). Mo also used + or - 20* or so for his range in total sums. That seemed to be Mo's choice of ratios and sums in the majority of his recommendations. Eric is following Mo's examples for most of his recommendations. Mo typically used the control layout for the THS. It would depend on how high the wall of oil was and how dry the track (overblock) as to whether he would vary much from the 0.5 below for the ratio. A "Control Layout" always adds sums to the total sum because of the friction which you refered to (to make the ball go longer).
My understanding was that the more you deviated from your benchmark range, the more skilled of a bowler you had to be to not have a doorstop instead of bowling ball.

Mo's recommendations were for the harder patterns.

Since then, we have been adding a very low ratio mid-lane layout for sport shots (developed by Eric/MegaMav). The layout produces a fairly flat shape with an early/long roll phase. In my opinion that seems to work for a fairly short time frame before it is time to change balls in more skilled competitions where there is a definite area of the lane opening up.


Last edited by elgavachon on Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with a high tilt bowler
 Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:39 am Post Number: #6 Post
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All I did was give the "basic" Asymmetrical arsenal list.
I purposely left out the Symmetrical layouts hoping it would spark more conversation for that or as to what this bowler was looking for and for what type of conditions. It was a quick post on my lunch break from my phone kind of making it a bookmark so I didn't loose sight of it.
It definitely sparked more conversation. Still waiting to hear back from Harrytech to find out more.

The higher tilt bowlers are somewhat at a disadvantage when it comes to stronger layout options.
Their sweetspot puts them into strong layouts right from the start. Putting them into the "sport" range of layouts as MegaMav has defined them. The Pin to PAP's and Ratios are already close to max when it comes to the Dual Angle guidelines.
The way I like to explain it is they are already rolling sport layouts.

JMerrell wrote:
A couple of questions always comes to mind:

People post their stats and ask for layout help.

But, in most cases they often never state whether they are looking for layout help for their weekly house shot league or whether they need help with ball reaction on competitive conditions.

I think we can all agree most THS provide enough friction for even the low rev rate / high tilt player to
find ball reaction on the lane.

My next question Eric, are the layouts you provide for competitive conditions?

The layouts I provide are to create different shapes and lengths to give a bowler enough options to work with so they can be competitive on different conditions.
The basic arsenal list...
Totally Strong
Midlane
Benchmark
Long and Strong
Control
low flare
These are also 6 different ways to drill a ball to either accentuate or counteract a balls natural characteristic.
All of which are in the Range that elgavachon explained.
When I know I am working with a bowler with an extensive arsenal more than 6 balls I will extend beyond the normal range so as not to duplicate the same reaction on multiple balls.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Help with a high tilt bowler
 Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:05 am Post Number: #7 Post
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I can attest to the effectiveness of the types of layouts given/needed by high tilt bowlers. A teammate and friend is a speed dominant, high tilt and high rotation bowler. With the help of Eric, I got my friend setup with a Motiv Jackal Ghost drilled at his benchmark of 30x4.25x56. His figured benchmark was 20x5x50 but it needed to be adjusted for pin placement and ended up pin in middle finger for him. The only thing holding him back from having excellent scores is his consistency, as the ball reaction for him is great.

As Eric mentioned, high tilt bowlers are limited in layout options in general...so ball selection becomes pretty important.

Also one thing that wasn't mentioned...is that on symmetrical equipment for high tilt/high rotation bowlers can be further limited in layouts and ball choice because you will need to have a large weight hole to pull the psa away from the thumb and get the lower drill angle that the layouts require.

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PAP 5x1 1/8
15.5mph off hand
260-270rev rate
7* tilt
70* rotation


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 Post subject: Re: Help with a high tilt bowler
 Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:09 am Post Number: #8 Post
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Thank you Eric for your help and anyone else who has contributed to this post,
I know enough to alter these layouts to Symmetrical layout but every now and then I just get a little stuck.
Most of the lane patterns this junior will be bowling on will be in the 3 to 1 and 5 to 1 range, not as difficult as Sport patterns and not as easy as house patterns.

Appreciate everyone's help.

Regards Harry


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 Post subject: Re: Help with a high tilt bowler
 Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:46 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Here's a thread from the Classic Threads in the wiki that deals with a high speed high tilt and rotation customer I drilled for in the early days of the forum. -- JohnP

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=175&p=1428&hilit=high+speed+high+tilt#p1428


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