Apparently all you need is your PAP for Dual Angle Layout
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Apparently all you need is your PAP for Dual Angle Layout
That's what all the Southern California pro shops tell me when I call to ask what they factor into the dual angle method. When I bring up stuff they don't really care about like speed, rev rate, axis tilt/rotation they dismiss those things as nice to know but not that important.
So all the stuff I've been reading and countless articles, blogs, threads, research papers and pro shop operators actually doing those things is a giant waste of time I guess.
I just want to know how not one, not two but the entire bowling pro shop industry in Southern California (which there are a lot of) can unilaterally decide to not perform the procedures necessary to accurately lay out a ball for a specific bowler using the dual angle method that has been documented in so many places and get away with it like it's nothing at all. All the while charging $50 to drill a ball despite not doing 3/4 of what is required?
So all the stuff I've been reading and countless articles, blogs, threads, research papers and pro shop operators actually doing those things is a giant waste of time I guess.
I just want to know how not one, not two but the entire bowling pro shop industry in Southern California (which there are a lot of) can unilaterally decide to not perform the procedures necessary to accurately lay out a ball for a specific bowler using the dual angle method that has been documented in so many places and get away with it like it's nothing at all. All the while charging $50 to drill a ball despite not doing 3/4 of what is required?
- Pulsetech
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- THS Average: 222
- Positive Axis Point: 5 over 1/2 up
- Speed: 18
- Rev Rate: 500
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Guru
- Medium Oil Ball: Score
- Light Oil Ball: Grease Monkey
- Preferred Company: Storm /Radical
- Location: Melbourne Australia
Re: Apparently all you need is your PAP for Dual Angle Layou
Why even get your pap if there not going to match up a drilling to your needs
I recently helped out a fellow bowler ( full roller ) who had problems with his gear.
when he spoke to his driller the response he got was " well it works on my balls"
All his gear was drilled as if he was a Semi roller with a PAP of 4 1/2 over.
This guy just draws lines on a ball and puts holes in it. I find that hard to swallow
He also charges $75 including 2 grips (cut in half yes that's right he calls them turbo 2 for 1's) and
an 1 3/8 solid (Yes even if your female and have a 3/4 thumb or smaller)
I recently helped out a fellow bowler ( full roller ) who had problems with his gear.
when he spoke to his driller the response he got was " well it works on my balls"
All his gear was drilled as if he was a Semi roller with a PAP of 4 1/2 over.
This guy just draws lines on a ball and puts holes in it. I find that hard to swallow
He also charges $75 including 2 grips (cut in half yes that's right he calls them turbo 2 for 1's) and
an 1 3/8 solid (Yes even if your female and have a 3/4 thumb or smaller)
Greg Robertson.
Right Handed
New stats as of 10/3/16
18 MPH at the line
Rev Rate 500
Axis Rotation 40 - 90
Axis Tilt - 14
PAP - 5" over, 1/2 up
Right Handed
New stats as of 10/3/16
18 MPH at the line
Rev Rate 500
Axis Rotation 40 - 90
Axis Tilt - 14
PAP - 5" over, 1/2 up
Re: Apparently all you need is your PAP for Dual Angle Layou
Pulsetech wrote:Why even get your pap if there not going to match up a drilling to your needs
I recently helped out a fellow bowler ( full roller ) who had problems with his gear.
when he spoke to his driller the response he got was " well it works on my balls"
All his gear was drilled as if he was a Semi roller with a PAP of 4 1/2 over.
This guy just draws lines on a ball and puts holes in it. I find that hard to swallow
He also charges $75 including 2 grips (cut in half yes that's right he calls them turbo 2 for 1's) and
an 1 3/8 solid (Yes even if your female and have a 3/4 thumb or smaller)
This industry has a long educational process in front of itself to create a class of "bowling professionals", doesn't it? This lack of overall professionalism and lack of intellectual curiosity is a result of the overall perception of bowling, created by its "leadership" that bowling is just an escapist recreational activity and not an authentic sport. When the PBA steps up and creates a class of bowling professionals, like the PGA did, bowling will initiated the recovery phrase.strikeordie wrote:That's what all the Southern California pro shops tell me when I call to ask what they factor into the dual angle method. When I bring up stuff they don't really care about like speed, rev rate, axis tilt/rotation they dismiss those things as nice to know but not that important.
So all the stuff I've been reading and countless articles, blogs, threads, research papers and pro shop operators actually doing those things is a giant waste of time I guess.
I just want to know how not one, not two but the entire bowling pro shop industry in Southern California (which there are a lot of) can unilaterally decide to not perform the procedures necessary to accurately lay out a ball for a specific bowler using the dual angle method that has been documented in so many places and get away with it like it's nothing at all. All the while charging $50 to drill a ball despite not doing 3/4 of what is required?
-Gary Parsons
If one does not know one's product, one can not manage nor promote the product one does not know.
If one does not know one's product, one can not manage nor promote the product one does not know.
- deanchamp
- Trusted Source
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Re: Apparently all you need is your PAP for Dual Angle Layou
To learn the dual angle layout method properly takes time, effort, reflection, experimentation and discussion. The reality is just because you own a pro shop and are a ball driller, it doesn't mean that you are going to increase your knowledge and keep up with the changes in ball technology and layout knowledge. That would require some extra work!strikeordie wrote:That's what all the Southern California pro shops tell me when I call to ask what they factor into the dual angle method. When I bring up stuff they don't really care about like speed, rev rate, axis tilt/rotation they dismiss those things as nice to know but not that important.
So all the stuff I've been reading and countless articles, blogs, threads, research papers and pro shop operators actually doing those things is a giant waste of time I guess.
I just want to know how not one, not two but the entire bowling pro shop industry in Southern California (which there are a lot of) can unilaterally decide to not perform the procedures necessary to accurately lay out a ball for a specific bowler using the dual angle method that has been documented in so many places and get away with it like it's nothing at all. All the while charging $50 to drill a ball despite not doing 3/4 of what is required?
From my own experiences, the majority of bowlers still think the dual angle system is some kind of voodoo for smart arses. And then there are those that are using it to lay out balls and saying all the right things, but they have no idea about what it all actually means and are just changing the numbers around with no regard to the ball roll, while also treating asymmetrical and symmetrical balls as the same thing.
I've also worked out layouts for bowlers before who took them to their ball driller, who then asked for me to draw them a picture of what it would look like so they could copy it onto the ball!!!
My approach is, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
There is so much free information available and help on tap here and elsewhere, to not do a paid job properly just smacks of laziness or a fear of the unknown.
Hopefully you can find someone who is willing and trying to update their knowledge.
Dean
USBC Silver Level Coach
BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
BTM contributor
BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
BTM contributor
- Mo Pinel
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Re: Apparently all you need is your PAP for Dual Angle Layou
deanchamp wrote: To learn the dual angle layout method properly takes time, effort, reflection, experimentation and discussion. The reality is just because you own a pro shop and are a ball driller, it doesn't mean that you are going to increase your knowledge and keep up with the changes in ball technology and layout knowledge. That would require some extra work!
From my own experiences, the majority of bowlers still think the dual angle system is some kind of voodoo for smart arses. And then there are those that are using it to lay out balls and saying all the right things, but they have no idea about what it all actually means and are just changing the numbers around with no regard to the ball roll, while also treating asymmetrical and symmetrical balls as the same thing.
I've also worked out layouts for bowlers before who took them to their ball driller, who then asked for me to draw them a picture of what it would look like so they could copy it onto the ball!!!
My approach is, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
There is so much free information available and help on tap here and elsewhere, to not do a paid job properly just smacks of laziness or a fear of the unknown.
Hopefully you can find someone who is willing and trying to update their knowledge.
Dean
Take a cue from Callaway - PHYSICS RULES!!!!!!!
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
- Pulsetech
- Member
- Posts: 213
- Joined: May 1st, 2014, 4:45 am
- THS Average: 222
- Positive Axis Point: 5 over 1/2 up
- Speed: 18
- Rev Rate: 500
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Guru
- Medium Oil Ball: Score
- Light Oil Ball: Grease Monkey
- Preferred Company: Storm /Radical
- Location: Melbourne Australia
Re: Apparently all you need is your PAP for Dual Angle Layou
Great Postdeanchamp wrote: To learn the dual angle layout method properly takes time, effort, reflection, experimentation and discussion. The reality is just because you own a pro shop and are a ball driller, it doesn't mean that you are going to increase your knowledge and keep up with the changes in ball technology and layout knowledge. That would require some extra work!
From my own experiences, the majority of bowlers still think the dual angle system is some kind of voodoo for smart arses. And then there are those that are using it to lay out balls and saying all the right things, but they have no idea about what it all actually means and are just changing the numbers around with no regard to the ball roll, while also treating asymmetrical and symmetrical balls as the same thing.
I've also worked out layouts for bowlers before who took them to their ball driller, who then asked for me to draw them a picture of what it would look like so they could copy it onto the ball!!!
My approach is, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
There is so much free information available and help on tap here and elsewhere, to not do a paid job properly just smacks of laziness or a fear of the unknown.
Hopefully you can find someone who is willing and trying to update their knowledge.
Dean
Greg Robertson.
Right Handed
New stats as of 10/3/16
18 MPH at the line
Rev Rate 500
Axis Rotation 40 - 90
Axis Tilt - 14
PAP - 5" over, 1/2 up
Right Handed
New stats as of 10/3/16
18 MPH at the line
Rev Rate 500
Axis Rotation 40 - 90
Axis Tilt - 14
PAP - 5" over, 1/2 up
- stevespo
- Member
- Posts: 584
- Joined: August 11th, 2014, 8:07 pm
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 5.75" x + 3/8"
- Speed: 17+ off hand (camera)
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Phaze II, Altered Reality
- Medium Oil Ball: IQ Tour Nano, Zen, Phase III
- Light Oil Ball: Electrify Pearl
Re: Apparently all you need is your PAP for Dual Angle Layou
I'm also struggling to find someone to help me as well. I've found my PAP with a piece of tape, and I think it's reasonably accurate - but I'd like some knowledgeable/professional support. My local pro shop has no interest whatsoever in this data. They just want to drill their "standard" layout using an "average" PAP.
When I initiate the discussion, it's always "people under 180 don't need that stuff". Ok, I can kind of see that. I'm averaging 205+ (after a 30 year layoff), but perhaps I'm still not consistent enough. However, I'm intellectually curious and want to experiment with some equipment and see what effect layout and ball technology has on my performance.
Given that I have a machine shop, it's tempting to just start drilling myself and learn from the mistakes. Very frustrating.
When I initiate the discussion, it's always "people under 180 don't need that stuff". Ok, I can kind of see that. I'm averaging 205+ (after a 30 year layoff), but perhaps I'm still not consistent enough. However, I'm intellectually curious and want to experiment with some equipment and see what effect layout and ball technology has on my performance.
Given that I have a machine shop, it's tempting to just start drilling myself and learn from the mistakes. Very frustrating.
16 mph (14-14.5 on monitor), 375 rpm, PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up, AT: 12*, AR: 45*
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Re: Apparently all you need is your PAP for Dual Angle Layou
I wouldn't recommend just drilling balls in your machine shop.stevespo wrote:I'm also struggling to find someone to help me as well. I've found my PAP with a piece of tape, and I think it's reasonably accurate - but I'd like some knowledgeable/professional support. My local pro shop has no interest whatsoever in this data. They just want to drill their "standard" layout using an "average" PAP.
When I initiate the discussion, it's always "people under 180 don't need that stuff". Ok, I can kind of see that. I'm averaging 205+ (after a 30 year layoff), but perhaps I'm still not consistent enough. However, I'm intellectually curious and want to experiment with some equipment and see what effect layout and ball technology has on my performance.
Given that I have a machine shop, it's tempting to just start drilling myself and learn from the mistakes. Very frustrating.
Where are you located? There are many people on here, one may know where to send you to get good, professional service.
- LabRat
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Re: Apparently all you need is your PAP for Dual Angle Layou
I'd say exactly the opposite - if you have the tools, and don't mind making mistakes, go for it. Buy a plug kit and experiment, it's a lot of fun, you can tweak your grip until it's perfect, and try different layouts without it costing the earth to do so.justhere4thefood wrote:
I wouldn't recommend just drilling balls in your machine shop.
Where are you located? There are many people on here, one may know where to send you to get good, professional service.
Chemistry is like cooking - just don't lick the spoon.
- stevespo
- Member
- Posts: 584
- Joined: August 11th, 2014, 8:07 pm
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 5.75" x + 3/8"
- Speed: 17+ off hand (camera)
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Phaze II, Altered Reality
- Medium Oil Ball: IQ Tour Nano, Zen, Phase III
- Light Oil Ball: Electrify Pearl
Re: Apparently all you need is your PAP for Dual Angle Layou
I'm in the Boston area, and I have to believe there are good local people - but it's just hard to find anyone between work, family, etc.
Although it's interesting to think about drilling my own, my strong preference would be not to. I have the equipment and I might enjoy the challenge, but I don't need another hobby. Trying to knock over pins is hard enough without trying to run my own personal "non-pro shop".
Any recommendations for drillers and coaches would be appreciated. I'm eager to improve.
Although it's interesting to think about drilling my own, my strong preference would be not to. I have the equipment and I might enjoy the challenge, but I don't need another hobby. Trying to knock over pins is hard enough without trying to run my own personal "non-pro shop".
Any recommendations for drillers and coaches would be appreciated. I'm eager to improve.
16 mph (14-14.5 on monitor), 375 rpm, PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up, AT: 12*, AR: 45*
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Re: Apparently all you need is your PAP for Dual Angle Layou
The pro shop map (see radio button labeled "Map" at the top of each page) shows a few shops in or near Boston. When you first look at the map it will be impossible to read because of the number of entries in the area. Use the scroll wheel on your mouse to increase the size so you can pick out individual shops. The one located closest to Boston doesn't have much information, just "02130" which I assume is a zip code, the user name and an e-mail address. NOTE: Anyone can put a shop entry on the map, there is no warranty to their ability, but it does mean that they have at least visited bowlingchat. -- JohnP
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Re: Apparently all you need is your PAP for Dual Angle Layou
Boston is a tough one.
I know it isn't exactly local, but I would consider going to Jon Van Hees at Strike FX Pro Shops in Cranston, RI.
I don't know the guys who are closer to the actual city of Boston to recommend them with any confidence.
I know it isn't exactly local, but I would consider going to Jon Van Hees at Strike FX Pro Shops in Cranston, RI.
I don't know the guys who are closer to the actual city of Boston to recommend them with any confidence.
- MoRichBowler300
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- Axis Rotation: 60
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Guru Master
- Medium Oil Ball: Radical Jackpot Solid
- Light Oil Ball: Radical Rack Attack Pearl
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- Location: Hallowell, ME
Re: Apparently all you need is your PAP for Dual Angle Layou
@stevespo, I run my shop out of Hallowell, ME. Which is about 2 miles south of the state capital, Augusta. I've been to a few Red Sox games so I know its about a 2 1/2 hour drive up here. I'm on the WIKI map. I think it's the only one in Maine on there. I've been personally taught by Mo in the Innovative Pro Shop school. PM me if you'd like to talk more. My website is http://www.nicksproshop.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I hope to hear from you so we can get some great fitting equipment in your hand that's layed out for your style.
www.nicksproshop.com
Guru Master 65 x 4 x 30 DBL thumb
Fix 70 x 4 1/2 x 40 p3
Jackpot Solid 60 x 3 1/2 x 55 p2.5 hole
Rave On 75 x 4 x 50
Rack Attack Pearl 90 x 4.5 x 70
BTU Pearl 125 x 2 1/4 x 45
Tilt: 14°
Rot: 60°
PAP 4 7/8 x 7/8
Hi Gm 300x5
Hi Srs 793
Guru Master 65 x 4 x 30 DBL thumb
Fix 70 x 4 1/2 x 40 p3
Jackpot Solid 60 x 3 1/2 x 55 p2.5 hole
Rave On 75 x 4 x 50
Rack Attack Pearl 90 x 4.5 x 70
BTU Pearl 125 x 2 1/4 x 45
Tilt: 14°
Rot: 60°
PAP 4 7/8 x 7/8
Hi Gm 300x5
Hi Srs 793
- stevespo
- Member
- Posts: 584
- Joined: August 11th, 2014, 8:07 pm
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 5.75" x + 3/8"
- Speed: 17+ off hand (camera)
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Phaze II, Altered Reality
- Medium Oil Ball: IQ Tour Nano, Zen, Phase III
- Light Oil Ball: Electrify Pearl
Re: Apparently all you need is your PAP for Dual Angle Layou
Appreciate the advice! To avoid hijacking this thread, I'll try and steer it back a little.
With so much great information out there, readily available (even if it is complex) - why are so many shops stuck in their ways? How can we as consumers shift their thinking and require them to provide more?
Having run a repair shop, I know that time is money and you often need to go for path of least resistance to maximize your hourly wage and balance your life. I totally understand that. However, your job is also to solve a customer's problems and to listen to their needs and address them - even if it means moving out of your comfort zone.
It's important to stay on top of new and evolving techniques and use those to help differentiate yourself and also provide a high level of service. At least that is my thinking. A lot of people don't feel that way, and it happens across every industry and application.
With so much great information out there, readily available (even if it is complex) - why are so many shops stuck in their ways? How can we as consumers shift their thinking and require them to provide more?
Having run a repair shop, I know that time is money and you often need to go for path of least resistance to maximize your hourly wage and balance your life. I totally understand that. However, your job is also to solve a customer's problems and to listen to their needs and address them - even if it means moving out of your comfort zone.
It's important to stay on top of new and evolving techniques and use those to help differentiate yourself and also provide a high level of service. At least that is my thinking. A lot of people don't feel that way, and it happens across every industry and application.
16 mph (14-14.5 on monitor), 375 rpm, PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up, AT: 12*, AR: 45*
- MoRichBowler300
- Pro Shop
- Posts: 349
- Joined: October 29th, 2010, 12:32 pm
- THS Average: 217
- Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 x 7/8 up
- Speed: 16 at 40 ft
- Rev Rate: 350
- Axis Tilt: 14
- Axis Rotation: 60
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Guru Master
- Medium Oil Ball: Radical Jackpot Solid
- Light Oil Ball: Radical Rack Attack Pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical
- Location: Hallowell, ME
Re: Apparently all you need is your PAP for Dual Angle Layou
Pretty simple answer. 90 percent of the bowling population wouldn't know if the ball was layed out correctly for their style or not. They will simply adjust to the layout and think nothing more of it. For the other 10% looking for that little extra, they have to do a little more research to see who's doing it properly. I may be a little off in those percentages, but if that is the case, why would the average pro shop operator go the extra mile for the small minority if the majority doesn't know any better? The lazy pro shop guy gets the money whether he's doing it properly or not when it comes from the 90% who don't know any better. There is no incentive to get better especially in a profession where no schooling is necessary. You simply learn (whether right or wrong) from the guy who is already drilling there, meaning there is no prerequisite for being a ball driller. When you apply to a bowling center, they aren't looking for any kind of pro shop training on your resume. They'll hire you to work front desk/pinchaser/snack bar/whatever....and then over time if you show interest, you can learn to drill from the guy who's been "doing it for 30 years" so he must be doing it right, right? Experience is supposed to equal knowledge, right? Not always, and especially in this business. I know first hand because I've only been around it for about 10 years and I know I'm doing it better than more "experienced" drillers. Bottom line, no incentive to get better. You come to work, make your $10 or whatever an hour and go home having drilled three balls or 0 balls but you sanded or polished someone's stuff. What do you care? You get your hourly wage whether or not anyone gets work done. I'm a little different. I independently own and operate my shop in a free standing building separate from an actual bowling center. If I don't get any ball work on a given night, I don't get paid. So, I had to get better. I had to separate myself from drillers inside of bowling centers so I could draw people away from doing what is convenient and simply have it done at the local lanes. I'll get off of my soap box now, but I hope that answers your question!stevespo wrote:Appreciate the advice! To avoid hijacking this thread, I'll try and steer it back a little.
With so much great information out there, readily available (even if it is complex) - why are so many shops stuck in their ways? How can we as consumers shift their thinking and require them to provide more?
Having run a repair shop, I know that time is money and you often need to go for path of least resistance to maximize your hourly wage and balance your life. I totally understand that. However, your job is also to solve a customer's problems and to listen to their needs and address them - even if it means moving out of your comfort zone.
It's important to stay on top of new and evolving techniques and use those to help differentiate yourself and also provide a high level of service. At least that is my thinking. A lot of people don't feel that way, and it happens across every industry and application.
www.nicksproshop.com
Guru Master 65 x 4 x 30 DBL thumb
Fix 70 x 4 1/2 x 40 p3
Jackpot Solid 60 x 3 1/2 x 55 p2.5 hole
Rave On 75 x 4 x 50
Rack Attack Pearl 90 x 4.5 x 70
BTU Pearl 125 x 2 1/4 x 45
Tilt: 14°
Rot: 60°
PAP 4 7/8 x 7/8
Hi Gm 300x5
Hi Srs 793
Guru Master 65 x 4 x 30 DBL thumb
Fix 70 x 4 1/2 x 40 p3
Jackpot Solid 60 x 3 1/2 x 55 p2.5 hole
Rave On 75 x 4 x 50
Rack Attack Pearl 90 x 4.5 x 70
BTU Pearl 125 x 2 1/4 x 45
Tilt: 14°
Rot: 60°
PAP 4 7/8 x 7/8
Hi Gm 300x5
Hi Srs 793