5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
Moderators: Mo Pinel, purduepaul, MathIsTruth, ballspinner
Forum rules
Ask Mo Pinel and the bowling industry's best your questions, and get straight answers.
This forum is moderated exclusively by Mo & Friends.
Ask Mo Pinel and the bowling industry's best your questions, and get straight answers.
This forum is moderated exclusively by Mo & Friends.
-
- Member
- Posts: 64
- Joined: February 8th, 2013, 3:16 pm
- THS Average: 215
- Positive Axis Point: 3-1/2" over 1/4" up
- Speed: 17.5 at release
- Rev Rate: 325
- Axis Tilt: 25
- Axis Rotation: 40
- Heavy Oil Ball: Forza, Jackal
- Medium Oil Ball: Primal Rage
- Light Oil Ball: QZ2, Tag
- Preferred Company: Motiv
5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
Recently purchased a Motiv TV4 (2.54 RG, .052 diff - medium heavy oil ball) that had a 3" pin & 3oz of top weight. I drilled this ball with the CG dead center of palm and put the pin just outside of my middle finger (which made it 5-1/4" from my PAP). My PAP is 3-1/2" over and 1/4" up.
This ball has hardly any flare or hook (hooks much less than my 2 light oil Motiv balls) and has moved my track over 1-1/2" closer to my thumb and fingers. This ball seems to feel very heavy towards the ring & pinkie fingers when holding it. The static weights ended up at 1/2oz side & 1/2oz finger...after drilling the finger holes very deep...had 0 side & 1-1/4 finger before we drilled them deeper).
Any ideas as to why this is happening? I'm thinking the CG was mismarked (although I've never had that it any Motiv ball prior). Any insight would be most helpful (I'm about to put this ball in storage forever and chalk it up to being a bad vall).
This ball has hardly any flare or hook (hooks much less than my 2 light oil Motiv balls) and has moved my track over 1-1/2" closer to my thumb and fingers. This ball seems to feel very heavy towards the ring & pinkie fingers when holding it. The static weights ended up at 1/2oz side & 1/2oz finger...after drilling the finger holes very deep...had 0 side & 1-1/4 finger before we drilled them deeper).
Any ideas as to why this is happening? I'm thinking the CG was mismarked (although I've never had that it any Motiv ball prior). Any insight would be most helpful (I'm about to put this ball in storage forever and chalk it up to being a bad vall).
Hand: Left
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up
Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
Primal TV4 is symmetrical, correct?
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... echart.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As you can see, 5.25" Pin-PAP is indeed in the "Small" flare range.
This can be useful depending on bowler specs and lane conditions, but it sounds like a bad match for you.
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... echart.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As you can see, 5.25" Pin-PAP is indeed in the "Small" flare range.
This can be useful depending on bowler specs and lane conditions, but it sounds like a bad match for you.
Right Handed
Speed: 18 mph (foul line)
Rev Rate: ~350 rpm
Tilt: 10*
Rotation: 55*
PAP: 5 1/8" right, 1/2" up
Speed: 18 mph (foul line)
Rev Rate: ~350 rpm
Tilt: 10*
Rotation: 55*
PAP: 5 1/8" right, 1/2" up
-
- Member
- Posts: 64
- Joined: February 8th, 2013, 3:16 pm
- THS Average: 215
- Positive Axis Point: 3-1/2" over 1/4" up
- Speed: 17.5 at release
- Rev Rate: 325
- Axis Tilt: 25
- Axis Rotation: 40
- Heavy Oil Ball: Forza, Jackal
- Medium Oil Ball: Primal Rage
- Light Oil Ball: QZ2, Tag
- Preferred Company: Motiv
Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
I've had a few balls drilled with that long of a Pin to PAP before and still had plenty of flare
Hand: Left
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up
- LabRat
- Pro Shop
- Posts: 1170
- Joined: July 16th, 2011, 2:12 pm
- THS Average: 208
- Preferred Company: Storm
- Location: Townsville, Australia
Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
Statics won't affect how the ball feels in the hand. Check the pitches, esp. laterals and thumb linear.
Chemistry is like cooking - just don't lick the spoon.
- LabRat
- Pro Shop
- Posts: 1170
- Joined: July 16th, 2011, 2:12 pm
- THS Average: 208
- Preferred Company: Storm
- Location: Townsville, Australia
Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
Re the lack of flare -if it's symmetric, and you have placed the pin on the NAP side of all gripping holes. Both the thumb and fingers are pushing the low rg axis away from the PAP, and the deep finger holes just make it worse, as well as reducing the diffs. Could easily be a 6"+ pin to PAP effectively.
Chemistry is like cooking - just don't lick the spoon.
-
- Member
- Posts: 64
- Joined: February 8th, 2013, 3:16 pm
- THS Average: 215
- Positive Axis Point: 3-1/2" over 1/4" up
- Speed: 17.5 at release
- Rev Rate: 325
- Axis Tilt: 25
- Axis Rotation: 40
- Heavy Oil Ball: Forza, Jackal
- Medium Oil Ball: Primal Rage
- Light Oil Ball: QZ2, Tag
- Preferred Company: Motiv
Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
Thanks Labrat for that explanation...it explains a lot. Looks like I'll either use it as a complete burn ball or sell it.
With a PAP of 3-1/2 over & 1/4 up, and 26° of tilt what would 3-3/8 still be the ideal pin to PAP distance for maximum flare?
With a PAP of 3-1/2 over & 1/4 up, and 26° of tilt what would 3-3/8 still be the ideal pin to PAP distance for maximum flare?
Hand: Left
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up
- Mo Pinel
- Rest In Peace
- Posts: 10054
- Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
- Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
- Location: Richmond, VA
Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
DarkHorse wrote:Primal TV4 is symmetrical, correct?
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... echart.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As you can see, 5.25" Pin-PAP is indeed in the "Small" flare range.
This can be useful depending on bowler specs and lane conditions, but it sounds like a bad match for you.
Good analysis!
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
- LabRat
- Pro Shop
- Posts: 1170
- Joined: July 16th, 2011, 2:12 pm
- THS Average: 208
- Preferred Company: Storm
- Location: Townsville, Australia
Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
Depending on rotation and rev rate/speed, you might want to look at pin placements that burn that tilt. 4-4.5" on asyms, 2.5-3" on syms with strong balance holes. If you post up your stats the layout gurus will be able to help more.Progmtl wrote:Thanks Labrat for that explanation...it explains a lot. Looks like I'll either use it as a complete burn ball or sell it.
With a PAP of 3-1/2 over & 1/4 up, and 26° of tilt what would 3-3/8 still be the ideal pin to PAP distance for maximum flare?
Chemistry is like cooking - just don't lick the spoon.
-
- Member
- Posts: 64
- Joined: February 8th, 2013, 3:16 pm
- THS Average: 215
- Positive Axis Point: 3-1/2" over 1/4" up
- Speed: 17.5 at release
- Rev Rate: 325
- Axis Tilt: 25
- Axis Rotation: 40
- Heavy Oil Ball: Forza, Jackal
- Medium Oil Ball: Primal Rage
- Light Oil Ball: QZ2, Tag
- Preferred Company: Motiv
Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
Speed (off hand): 18mph
Revrate: 350
PAP: 3.5 over, 1/4 up
Axis Rotation: 40
Axis Tilt: 24
Guess I should put all that in my signature
Was told at one time that I shouldn't have a lot of asymmetricals in my arsenal because of the high tilt...any truth to that?
Revrate: 350
PAP: 3.5 over, 1/4 up
Axis Rotation: 40
Axis Tilt: 24
Guess I should put all that in my signature
Was told at one time that I shouldn't have a lot of asymmetricals in my arsenal because of the high tilt...any truth to that?
Hand: Left
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
Asymmetricals by nature burn tilt at a slower rate than Syms but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have any asyms in your arsenal. Longer pin to PAP distances and lower ratios will be your friends with Asyms.Progmtl wrote:Speed (off hand): 18mph
Revrate: 350
PAP: 3.5 over, 1/4 up
Axis Rotation: 40
Axis Tilt: 24
Guess I should put all that in my signature
Was told at one time that I shouldn't have a lot of asymmetricals in my arsenal because of the high tilt...any truth to that?
Benchmark Asym....85* total 1:1.5 ratio 35-4.5-50
Benchmark Sym.....40-3-45 bal hole 1.5" below midline on VAL
The Benchmark layout will be a strong layout for THS. What type of lane condition are you bowling on?
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
-
- Member
- Posts: 64
- Joined: February 8th, 2013, 3:16 pm
- THS Average: 215
- Positive Axis Point: 3-1/2" over 1/4" up
- Speed: 17.5 at release
- Rev Rate: 325
- Axis Tilt: 25
- Axis Rotation: 40
- Heavy Oil Ball: Forza, Jackal
- Medium Oil Ball: Primal Rage
- Light Oil Ball: QZ2, Tag
- Preferred Company: Motiv
Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
I mostly bowl on a medium THS, but do bowl some sport shots and have been doing Nationals for 22 years.
Most of my symmetrical THS layouts are very close to what you suggest as a benchmark. This last ball (the TV4) was the first one where the layout just didn't work for me at all.
I actually don't own an asymmetrical ball anymore. ..speaking of asymmetrical...would the pin to pap distances you recommended be the same for control (sport) layouts? I currently have 2 balls with control layouts (Sigma Tour & Venom Strike) and would like to get a ball for oily sport shots that hook more than those 2 balls and what Motiv has in the "heavy" line are both asymmetrical.
Most of my symmetrical THS layouts are very close to what you suggest as a benchmark. This last ball (the TV4) was the first one where the layout just didn't work for me at all.
I actually don't own an asymmetrical ball anymore. ..speaking of asymmetrical...would the pin to pap distances you recommended be the same for control (sport) layouts? I currently have 2 balls with control layouts (Sigma Tour & Venom Strike) and would like to get a ball for oily sport shots that hook more than those 2 balls and what Motiv has in the "heavy" line are both asymmetrical.
Hand: Left
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
I would recommend a midlane layout on an Asym 1:2 ratio 65* total 20-5.5-45 for longer patterns.
I went with the 5.5" pin to get the ball to roll foward to keep a straighter line to the pocket on the tougher condition. For more hook 25-4.5-40.
Asym Control layouts have higher totals, lower ratios and longer pin distances than benchmark
I went with the 5.5" pin to get the ball to roll foward to keep a straighter line to the pocket on the tougher condition. For more hook 25-4.5-40.
Asym Control layouts have higher totals, lower ratios and longer pin distances than benchmark
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
-
- Member
- Posts: 64
- Joined: February 8th, 2013, 3:16 pm
- THS Average: 215
- Positive Axis Point: 3-1/2" over 1/4" up
- Speed: 17.5 at release
- Rev Rate: 325
- Axis Tilt: 25
- Axis Rotation: 40
- Heavy Oil Ball: Forza, Jackal
- Medium Oil Ball: Primal Rage
- Light Oil Ball: QZ2, Tag
- Preferred Company: Motiv
Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
Thank you Eric...much appreciated
I'm assuming I'd want a fairly dull surface on this? I took Mo's advice awhile ago and took the polish off most of my equipment...I've been getting much better reaction and carry since I did.
I'm assuming I'd want a fairly dull surface on this? I took Mo's advice awhile ago and took the polish off most of my equipment...I've been getting much better reaction and carry since I did.
Hand: Left
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
You are correct. A dull surface is definitely going to be needed for long patterns.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
...
Last edited by 56bird on March 3rd, 2014, 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Member
- Posts: 69
- Joined: August 7th, 2012, 7:26 pm
- THS Average: 221
- Positive Axis Point: 5.25 left, 1/2 up
- Speed: 16.5
- Rev Rate: 325
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Location: Richmond, Va.
Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?
The Primal TV4 had a very weak cover. It was designed for playing straighter up lane. Mine was drilled with a 3 3/8" pin to pap and it still didn't cover a lot of boards. It's a great ball for straight angles and sport patterns and I won a lot of money with it but it's just not a ball for the THS.
James C. Jones, Innovative Bowling Products Certified Pro Shop Operator
Orbdrillers Pro Shop, Petersburg, Virginia
Local IBEW 666, Journeyman Wireman
Rev Dominant, Lefty
16.5 mph, 300 rpms, 12* of Tilt, PAP: 5.5" left x 1" up
Orbdrillers Pro Shop, Petersburg, Virginia
Local IBEW 666, Journeyman Wireman
Rev Dominant, Lefty
16.5 mph, 300 rpms, 12* of Tilt, PAP: 5.5" left x 1" up