5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

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Progmtl
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Posts: 64
Joined: February 8th, 2013, 3:16 pm
THS Average: 215
Positive Axis Point: 3-1/2" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17.5 at release
Rev Rate: 325
Axis Tilt: 25
Axis Rotation: 40
Heavy Oil Ball: Forza, Jackal
Medium Oil Ball: Primal Rage
Light Oil Ball: QZ2, Tag
Preferred Company: Motiv

5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

Post by Progmtl » March 1st, 2014, 4:16 am

Recently purchased a Motiv TV4 (2.54 RG, .052 diff - medium heavy oil ball) that had a 3" pin & 3oz of top weight. I drilled this ball with the CG dead center of palm and put the pin just outside of my middle finger (which made it 5-1/4" from my PAP). My PAP is 3-1/2" over and 1/4" up.

This ball has hardly any flare or hook (hooks much less than my 2 light oil Motiv balls) and has moved my track over 1-1/2" closer to my thumb and fingers. This ball seems to feel very heavy towards the ring & pinkie fingers when holding it. The static weights ended up at 1/2oz side & 1/2oz finger...after drilling the finger holes very deep...had 0 side & 1-1/4 finger before we drilled them deeper).

Any ideas as to why this is happening? I'm thinking the CG was mismarked (although I've never had that it any Motiv ball prior). Any insight would be most helpful (I'm about to put this ball in storage forever and chalk it up to being a bad vall).
Hand: Left
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up

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DarkHorse
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Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

Post by DarkHorse » March 1st, 2014, 4:46 am

Primal TV4 is symmetrical, correct?

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... echart.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you can see, 5.25" Pin-PAP is indeed in the "Small" flare range.
This can be useful depending on bowler specs and lane conditions, but it sounds like a bad match for you.
Right Handed
Speed: 18 mph (foul line)
Rev Rate: ~350 rpm
Tilt: 10*
Rotation: 55*
PAP: 5 1/8" right, 1/2" up

Progmtl
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Posts: 64
Joined: February 8th, 2013, 3:16 pm
THS Average: 215
Positive Axis Point: 3-1/2" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17.5 at release
Rev Rate: 325
Axis Tilt: 25
Axis Rotation: 40
Heavy Oil Ball: Forza, Jackal
Medium Oil Ball: Primal Rage
Light Oil Ball: QZ2, Tag
Preferred Company: Motiv

Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

Post by Progmtl » March 1st, 2014, 6:13 am

I've had a few balls drilled with that long of a Pin to PAP before and still had plenty of flare
Hand: Left
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up

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LabRat
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Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

Post by LabRat » March 1st, 2014, 12:21 pm

Statics won't affect how the ball feels in the hand. Check the pitches, esp. laterals and thumb linear.
Chemistry is like cooking - just don't lick the spoon.

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Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

Post by LabRat » March 1st, 2014, 12:27 pm

Re the lack of flare -if it's symmetric, and you have placed the pin on the NAP side of all gripping holes. Both the thumb and fingers are pushing the low rg axis away from the PAP, and the deep finger holes just make it worse, as well as reducing the diffs. Could easily be a 6"+ pin to PAP effectively.
Chemistry is like cooking - just don't lick the spoon.

Progmtl
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Posts: 64
Joined: February 8th, 2013, 3:16 pm
THS Average: 215
Positive Axis Point: 3-1/2" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17.5 at release
Rev Rate: 325
Axis Tilt: 25
Axis Rotation: 40
Heavy Oil Ball: Forza, Jackal
Medium Oil Ball: Primal Rage
Light Oil Ball: QZ2, Tag
Preferred Company: Motiv

Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

Post by Progmtl » March 1st, 2014, 4:24 pm

Thanks Labrat for that explanation...it explains a lot. Looks like I'll either use it as a complete burn ball or sell it.

With a PAP of 3-1/2 over & 1/4 up, and 26° of tilt what would 3-3/8 still be the ideal pin to PAP distance for maximum flare?
Hand: Left
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up

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Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

Post by Mo Pinel » March 1st, 2014, 5:17 pm

DarkHorse wrote:Primal TV4 is symmetrical, correct?

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... echart.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you can see, 5.25" Pin-PAP is indeed in the "Small" flare range.
This can be useful depending on bowler specs and lane conditions, but it sounds like a bad match for you.

Good analysis!
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)

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LabRat
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Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

Post by LabRat » March 2nd, 2014, 2:11 am

Progmtl wrote:Thanks Labrat for that explanation...it explains a lot. Looks like I'll either use it as a complete burn ball or sell it.

With a PAP of 3-1/2 over & 1/4 up, and 26° of tilt what would 3-3/8 still be the ideal pin to PAP distance for maximum flare?
Depending on rotation and rev rate/speed, you might want to look at pin placements that burn that tilt. 4-4.5" on asyms, 2.5-3" on syms with strong balance holes. If you post up your stats the layout gurus will be able to help more.
Chemistry is like cooking - just don't lick the spoon.

Progmtl
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Posts: 64
Joined: February 8th, 2013, 3:16 pm
THS Average: 215
Positive Axis Point: 3-1/2" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17.5 at release
Rev Rate: 325
Axis Tilt: 25
Axis Rotation: 40
Heavy Oil Ball: Forza, Jackal
Medium Oil Ball: Primal Rage
Light Oil Ball: QZ2, Tag
Preferred Company: Motiv

Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

Post by Progmtl » March 2nd, 2014, 5:06 am

Speed (off hand): 18mph
Revrate: 350
PAP: 3.5 over, 1/4 up
Axis Rotation: 40
Axis Tilt: 24

Guess I should put all that in my signature


Was told at one time that I shouldn't have a lot of asymmetricals in my arsenal because of the high tilt...any truth to that?
Hand: Left
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up

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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Track Spare+
Location: Michigan

Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

Post by EricHartwell » March 2nd, 2014, 5:18 am

Progmtl wrote:Speed (off hand): 18mph
Revrate: 350
PAP: 3.5 over, 1/4 up
Axis Rotation: 40
Axis Tilt: 24

Guess I should put all that in my signature


Was told at one time that I shouldn't have a lot of asymmetricals in my arsenal because of the high tilt...any truth to that?
Asymmetricals by nature burn tilt at a slower rate than Syms but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have any asyms in your arsenal. Longer pin to PAP distances and lower ratios will be your friends with Asyms.

Benchmark Asym....85* total 1:1.5 ratio 35-4.5-50
Benchmark Sym.....40-3-45 bal hole 1.5" below midline on VAL

The Benchmark layout will be a strong layout for THS. What type of lane condition are you bowling on?
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Progmtl
Member
Member
Posts: 64
Joined: February 8th, 2013, 3:16 pm
THS Average: 215
Positive Axis Point: 3-1/2" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17.5 at release
Rev Rate: 325
Axis Tilt: 25
Axis Rotation: 40
Heavy Oil Ball: Forza, Jackal
Medium Oil Ball: Primal Rage
Light Oil Ball: QZ2, Tag
Preferred Company: Motiv

Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

Post by Progmtl » March 2nd, 2014, 5:36 am

I mostly bowl on a medium THS, but do bowl some sport shots and have been doing Nationals for 22 years.

Most of my symmetrical THS layouts are very close to what you suggest as a benchmark. This last ball (the TV4) was the first one where the layout just didn't work for me at all.

I actually don't own an asymmetrical ball anymore. ..speaking of asymmetrical...would the pin to pap distances you recommended be the same for control (sport) layouts? I currently have 2 balls with control layouts (Sigma Tour & Venom Strike) and would like to get a ball for oily sport shots that hook more than those 2 balls and what Motiv has in the "heavy" line are both asymmetrical.
Hand: Left
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up

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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Track Spare+
Location: Michigan

Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

Post by EricHartwell » March 2nd, 2014, 6:41 am

I would recommend a midlane layout on an Asym 1:2 ratio 65* total 20-5.5-45 for longer patterns.
I went with the 5.5" pin to get the ball to roll foward to keep a straighter line to the pocket on the tougher condition. For more hook 25-4.5-40.

Asym Control layouts have higher totals, lower ratios and longer pin distances than benchmark
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Progmtl
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Posts: 64
Joined: February 8th, 2013, 3:16 pm
THS Average: 215
Positive Axis Point: 3-1/2" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17.5 at release
Rev Rate: 325
Axis Tilt: 25
Axis Rotation: 40
Heavy Oil Ball: Forza, Jackal
Medium Oil Ball: Primal Rage
Light Oil Ball: QZ2, Tag
Preferred Company: Motiv

Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

Post by Progmtl » March 2nd, 2014, 7:07 am

Thank you Eric...much appreciated

I'm assuming I'd want a fairly dull surface on this? I took Mo's advice awhile ago and took the polish off most of my equipment...I've been getting much better reaction and carry since I did.
Hand: Left
Speed: 17 at release
Revs: 325
Rotation: 40°
Tilt: 25°
PAP: 3-1/2 over, 1/4 up

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EricHartwell
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Posts: 3844
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Track Spare+
Location: Michigan

Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

Post by EricHartwell » March 2nd, 2014, 5:48 pm

You are correct. A dull surface is definitely going to be needed for long patterns.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

Post by 56bird » March 2nd, 2014, 7:05 pm

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Last edited by 56bird on March 3rd, 2014, 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RightyComplex
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Re: 5-1/4" pin to pap cause ball to not flare or hook?

Post by RightyComplex » March 2nd, 2014, 7:18 pm

The Primal TV4 had a very weak cover. It was designed for playing straighter up lane. Mine was drilled with a 3 3/8" pin to pap and it still didn't cover a lot of boards. It's a great ball for straight angles and sport patterns and I won a lot of money with it but it's just not a ball for the THS.
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