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 Post subject: Drilling For A Spinner / Very Low Track Bowler
 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:35 am Post Number: #1 Post
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I have a customer who is a spinner and has brought me many different bowling balls to drill (N'sane LevRg, Twisted Fury, Sideways and others), and we have tried many different layouts, but none have really worked very well for him. His Twisted Fury hooks the most for him (I don't remember the layout), and recently I drilled a Twisted Fury Destruction using a layout from Roto Grip that they called "Spinners Dream" (if I remember correctly - 5" pin to pap, 3" mb to pap, 4.5" pin buffer). Unfortunately the ball still doesn't hook much.

Are there any tips / tricks / secrets to getting a huge hook for a spinner? Or is he just at the limit of what he will get for his style of play?

Thanks,

Matt

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 Post subject: Re: Drilling For A Spinner / Very Low Track Bowler
 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:07 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Matt,

My question to you is do you believe he knows where to throw the ball to get it to hook. I mean do you watch him throw it afterwards? If he's skidding inside on the oil, it ain't ever going to hook?

Some other thoughts:
- The Destruction doesn't seem a good choice for him as it's a skid/flip type of ball. I thought he'd need solids or earlier rollingballs??? Of course the amount of oil he's playing on determines the kind of ball.

- Stronger and lower pins, closer MB positions, and more surface are the standards keys for lower track players. (Assume you know this; just getting it down "on paper".)

- The 5" pin to PAP doesn't seem to make sense, unless he's also a lower speed player. I think lower track players need more flare also, to get the ball started up earlier.)

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Speed: 13.5 -14.5 at pin deck
Rev Rate: 275 - 350
Axis rotation: 45*
Axis tilt: 17*
PAP: 5" x 0"


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling For A Spinner / Very Low Track Bowler
 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:15 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Hi Charlest,

Here is a link to the Roto Grip PDF with the layout I followed, it is on page 4. http://www.rotogrip.com/products/pdf/as ... -guide.pdf

It's been a couple of weeks since I watched him bowl but from what I recall he usually plays near the track, between 5-10, and either plays straight up the boards or points it a little to the pocket since he doesn't get much hook (this on a THS, heavy in the middle tapering off outside to fairly dry). I don't remember his exact ball speed but would put it in the medium high category, probably between 15.5-18mph, I know that is a large range and can make a big difference in ball reaction, I will be sure to watch him next week to get a better idea of his actual speed range. I seem to remember that he also only has a moderate amount of spin on the ball, and drives the ball down into the lane due to late timing and getting on top of the ball.

I have very little experience with spinners so am not sure what the best type of balls are for him. In this case that doesn't matter much since he has only ever bought one ball from me, the rest he has purchased online without any input from me. I did call and speak with a tech at 900 Global one time about what ball to get and he said not to get too strong of a ball, more of a mid-level performance ball. The only thing I remember him saying about layouts was no less than 3 3/8 pin to pap and I think he said a little more was ok, I will have to try to find my note. I really wasn't sure what the RotoGrip "spinners dream" layout would do for him, the 5" pin to pap seemed rather long to me, I tried it because I am just out of ideas for this person.

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-- Using Video To Measure Rev Rate, Speed, Tilt & Rotation --
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 Post subject: Re: Drilling For A Spinner / Very Low Track Bowler
 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:25 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Matt,

I've seen that type of drill before. With the low pin and the MB on the VAL, you can see why it would help a spinner get the ball into the proper roll. It's similar to what has been termed the Rico drilling. That is also used to calm balls down and make them very even reacting. Not sure if you've seen it before:
http://www.brunsnick.com/rico_ball_layout.html
http://bowlingknowledge.info/index.php? ... 1&Itemid=1

It's kind of a shame he keeps bringing you balls to drill, as it seem like he doesn't really know what's good for his delivery. (I'm no expert just passing on what I've learned.) You/his driller are th ebest one to analyze his delivery and determine what he needs based on the oilamount and pattern where he's bowling.

I'm guessing that 900Global suggested medium ball for him because he prefers to play more down and in.

If he throws a spinner + 18 mph, he must have been having problems for a long time. :D Slower ball speed would help him, but it's the correct combination of ball, surface and drilling that will do him the most good.

I'd still suggest strongish, medium oil solids, like the Furious, the Diamondback, Reign of Fire and similar. Maybe even a particle medium oil ball.

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Right handed
Speed: 13.5 -14.5 at pin deck
Rev Rate: 275 - 350
Axis rotation: 45*
Axis tilt: 17*
PAP: 5" x 0"


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling For A Spinner / Very Low Track Bowler
 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:35 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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I asked this very same question in the section The How and why behind MB/asymmetrical balls the 5th paragraph down. I'm glad I'm not the only one with questions. MY question again: since long pins allow the tilt to transition quicker, 3-4 inch pins give wobble or more friction, does the long pin take precedence in a spinner? almost always? depends on the situation?


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling For A Spinner / Very Low Track Bowler
 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:59 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
I asked this very same question in the section The How and why behind MB/asymmetrical balls the 5th paragraph down. I'm glad I'm not the only one with questions. MY question again: since long pins allow the tilt to transition quicker, 3-4 inch pins give wobble or more friction, does the long pin take precedence in a spinner? almost always? depends on the situation?


As far as I am concerned, AND as far as I have learned, that is probably less important, in this situation, than the surface and the ball's basic design and the drilling. That said, while I tend not to use 1" nor 5" pin-CG distances in general, the actual length/distance desired is more dependent on the drilling you have in mind and whether you want a weight hole AND where you want it.

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Right handed
Speed: 13.5 -14.5 at pin deck
Rev Rate: 275 - 350
Axis rotation: 45*
Axis tilt: 17*
PAP: 5" x 0"


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling For A Spinner / Very Low Track Bowler
 Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:57 am Post Number: #7 Post
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As I said in the previous post, we generally tend to use 4 1/2 to 5" pin to pap distances for high track players. If they are speed dominate, I would use a 10 x 4 3/4" x 35. This layout will allow the ball to lose tilt extremely quickly but make a nice hard move.

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The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling For A Spinner / Very Low Track Bowler
 Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:21 am Post Number: #8 Post
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purduepaul wrote:
As I said in the previous post, we generally tend to use 4 1/2 to 5" pin to pap distances for high track players. If they are speed dominate, I would use a 10 x 4 3/4" x 35. This layout will allow the ball to lose tilt extremely quickly but make a nice hard move.

you meant to say low track right Paul?


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling For A Spinner / Very Low Track Bowler
 Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:02 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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I was a ball driller for 37 years and I also throw a spinner. The dill for hook for me was a rico with low top weight.

Verl


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling For A Spinner / Very Low Track Bowler
 Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:49 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Thanks everyone for the responses and ideas.

I found the other post Paul is referring to, he meant to say high tilt.

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Matt

-- Using Video To Measure Rev Rate, Speed, Tilt & Rotation --
-- Tips - How To Capture Video For Rev Rate, Speed, Tilt, & Rotation Measurement --
-- Tips - Video Capture For Bowler Assessment / Coaching --


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling For A Spinner / Very Low Track Bowler
 Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:23 am Post Number: #11 Post
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verllowry wrote:
I was a ball driller for 37 years and I also throw a spinner. The dill for hook for me was a rico with low top weight.

Verl


You have to remember that the basis of the rico drill is a low drilling angle and a super high VAL angle (past the 70 degrees we recommend) so what will happen is that the breakpoint will be super smooth, however depending on the lane pattern you will probably not get to the roll phase of ball motion....

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The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation


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