If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
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- MegaMav
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If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
How would you promote them?
Im not talking Mica pearl balls, im talking about the balls with a significant micro additive.
It seems particle balls left a bad taste in some people's mouths when they were put on showcase by many companies in the late 1990's
Most were billed as "Heavy Oil Monsters", but most people who used them on THS viewed them as turds, probably because they burned up from all the friction.
Was there something that could have been done from a development or marketing standpoint when they were first introduced that would have made them more successful today, and not just a niche ball?
In my opinion, particle balls, when used with head oil, are an incredible tool to have.
Im not talking Mica pearl balls, im talking about the balls with a significant micro additive.
It seems particle balls left a bad taste in some people's mouths when they were put on showcase by many companies in the late 1990's
Most were billed as "Heavy Oil Monsters", but most people who used them on THS viewed them as turds, probably because they burned up from all the friction.
Was there something that could have been done from a development or marketing standpoint when they were first introduced that would have made them more successful today, and not just a niche ball?
In my opinion, particle balls, when used with head oil, are an incredible tool to have.
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Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
I think that alot of companies are re-introducing them and just not calling them particle balls..
from what I have heard the MegaFriction has some particle in it and maybe also the Bounty. There are a few others as well..
I think people are now more knowledgeable about conditions and what ball to use on what condition. Back in the early days of particle promotion all people heard was the the ball was suppose to hook on anything..
yeah.. anything with oil.. if there isn't enough oil any ball will roll out at 20 ft and hit like a turd.
Fyi.. if your particle is burning up and dying I have found that if you polish up a particle ball it gives you a very nice reaction and movement on a variety of lane conditions. My leverage drilled Brunswick goliath was a monster polished. Wish I never gave it to my Dad.
from what I have heard the MegaFriction has some particle in it and maybe also the Bounty. There are a few others as well..
I think people are now more knowledgeable about conditions and what ball to use on what condition. Back in the early days of particle promotion all people heard was the the ball was suppose to hook on anything..
yeah.. anything with oil.. if there isn't enough oil any ball will roll out at 20 ft and hit like a turd.
Fyi.. if your particle is burning up and dying I have found that if you polish up a particle ball it gives you a very nice reaction and movement on a variety of lane conditions. My leverage drilled Brunswick goliath was a monster polished. Wish I never gave it to my Dad.
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
Book Average 210+
- MegaMav
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Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
Yes, I have heard of "masking" the particle additive.
I heard the Total Inferno was a particle ball as well, but marketed as a "Traction Reactive"
In terms of marketing, I found this on my Jade Quantum drill sheet:
I heard the Total Inferno was a particle ball as well, but marketed as a "Traction Reactive"
In terms of marketing, I found this on my Jade Quantum drill sheet:
The word "hook" was used 4 times.Brunswick Bowling wrote: The traction generated by the Axiom Proactive Urethane, even when shined, will give an impressive increase in total hook for many bowlers on house type conditions.
If the bowler wants to increase the hooking action of the ball out of the box they can benefit from the fact that Axiom Proactive Urethane is significantly cleaner through the front part of the lane when used dull. Don’t be afraid to use aggressive surface finishes.
Proactive Urethane is a significant improvement over reactive technology when used dull, delivering a reaction that is much less sensitive to the front part of the lane.
Sanding the Proactive coverstock will generate more hook along the entire length of the lane. However, most of the increase in hook will come in the middle and backend parts of the lane, offsetting any early reaction that may be created.
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Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
found this about the Brunswick groove proactive
Want more hook? Move all the way up to Proactive coverstock technology. Compared to Reactive, Proactive coverstock technology increases hooking action in the oil by adding texturizing particles that create a tread-like surface that tractions through heavier amounts of oil, increasing friction and hooking action. Like Reactive coverstocks, Proactive coverstocks can be sanded or shined to create large differences in hook potential. Proactive coverstocks also respond less violently to dry lane surfaces than Reactive coverstocks, creating a smoother, more arcing ball reaction with more control.
Want more hook? Move all the way up to Proactive coverstock technology. Compared to Reactive, Proactive coverstock technology increases hooking action in the oil by adding texturizing particles that create a tread-like surface that tractions through heavier amounts of oil, increasing friction and hooking action. Like Reactive coverstocks, Proactive coverstocks can be sanded or shined to create large differences in hook potential. Proactive coverstocks also respond less violently to dry lane surfaces than Reactive coverstocks, creating a smoother, more arcing ball reaction with more control.
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
Book Average 210+
- MegaMav
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- Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
- Rev Rate: 375
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- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
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- Location: Malta, NY
Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
Definite change in verbiage there.
I think there would have been a better understanding if the ball manufacturers communicated to the general community how particles interact with the lane surface and why they hook the way that they do.
Just because there is constant contact with the lane surface, doesnt mean *MORE* hook, its just a different reaction shape.
I think there would have been a better understanding if the ball manufacturers communicated to the general community how particles interact with the lane surface and why they hook the way that they do.
Just because there is constant contact with the lane surface, doesnt mean *MORE* hook, its just a different reaction shape.
Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
The Mega Frction and the Bounty Hunter were not "hidden" particle balls. At least, not on BR.com, they weren't. Kind of surprised that the website did not indicate that.J_w73 wrote:I think that alot of companies are re-introducing them and just not calling them particle balls..
from what I have heard the MegaFriction has some particle in it and maybe also the Bounty. There are a few others as well..
A representative of 900Global/AMF300 said, on BR.com, that the MF had a 6% load of particles and the BH had a 3% load of particles.
I think that was obvious to almost everyone from the get-go.I think people are now more knowledgeable about conditions and what ball to use on what condition. Back in the early days of particle promotion all people heard was the the ball was suppose to hook on anything..
yeah.. anything with oil.. if there isn't enough oil any ball will roll out at 20 ft and hit like a turd.
My Legends NS2, a heavy load of diamond particles, was exactly like that. I stacked the pin over the ring finger, polished it up and it was a monster on medium oil.Fyi.. if your particle is burning up and dying I have found that if you polish up a particle ball it gives you a very nice reaction and movement on a variety of lane conditions. My leverage drilled Brunswick goliath was a monster polished. Wish I never gave it to my Dad.
Right handed
Speed: 13.5 -14.5 at pin deck
Rev Rate: 275 - 350
Axis rotation: 45*
Axis tilt: 17*
PAP: 5" x 0"
Speed: 13.5 -14.5 at pin deck
Rev Rate: 275 - 350
Axis rotation: 45*
Axis tilt: 17*
PAP: 5" x 0"
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- Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
- Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
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Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
I don't see AMF advertising that there is particle in the MegaFriction coverstock.
I also don't see 900 global saying anything as well on their site or ads.
I also don't think the proper use of particle balls was obvious to everyone..
I think alot of people are just now finally realizing that a cover can be too strong..
I also don't see 900 global saying anything as well on their site or ads.
I also don't think the proper use of particle balls was obvious to everyone..
I think alot of people are just now finally realizing that a cover can be too strong..
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
Book Average 210+
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Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
I see a lot of information on brunswick proactive coverstock. Does anyone know if the Response by Morich fits in this category?
Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
Please elaborate, "the Response" ... Oh , you mean the ball called the Response?elgavachon wrote:I see a lot of information on brunswick proactive coverstock. Does anyone know if the Response by Morich fits in this category?
I doubt it. It was a response to a document by the USBC about the ways to measure surface roughness, Ra, and how it can affect ball reaction. Several companies came out with such balls, soon after that article was published..
BTW if you look at the MoRich website, Mo says the Craze has a stronger (higher?) Ra than the response. It (Ra) is just another tool in the ball designer's aresenal.
Right handed
Speed: 13.5 -14.5 at pin deck
Rev Rate: 275 - 350
Axis rotation: 45*
Axis tilt: 17*
PAP: 5" x 0"
Speed: 13.5 -14.5 at pin deck
Rev Rate: 275 - 350
Axis rotation: 45*
Axis tilt: 17*
PAP: 5" x 0"
Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
Nope, it's not.Neither is the BH on the 900Global website. But Eric Thomas came on BR.com and told us.J_w73 wrote:I don't see AMF advertising that there is particle in the MegaFriction coverstock.
I also don't see 900 global saying anything as well on their site or ads.
There is no ONE proper use for particles.I also don't think the proper use of particle balls was obvious to everyone.
That's been an ongoing concern for many of us on BR.com, here and elsewhere for a long time.I think a lot of people are just now finally realizing that a cover can be too strong.
Mentally most bowlers are still in the 1980s and the urethane ball reaction era. They believe:
- all balls hook.
- the ones that hook more can be used on more oil
- the ones that hook lesscan be used on less oil
- all balls can be used on any amount of oil
- if a strong ball doesn't hook, there's something wrong with the ball, not them, their driller, the drilling, the surface or the pattern on which they're using it.
Resin and particle balls have an inherently different set of reactions from urethanes and they must be learned.
Right handed
Speed: 13.5 -14.5 at pin deck
Rev Rate: 275 - 350
Axis rotation: 45*
Axis tilt: 17*
PAP: 5" x 0"
Speed: 13.5 -14.5 at pin deck
Rev Rate: 275 - 350
Axis rotation: 45*
Axis tilt: 17*
PAP: 5" x 0"
- MegaMav
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- Rev Rate: 375
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- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
- Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
- Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
- Location: Malta, NY
Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
I think if a manufacturer does not post the particle inclusion on his website OR drill sheet, its not considered common knowledge.charlest wrote:Nope, it's not.
Neither is the BH on the 900Global website. But Eric Thomas came on BR.com and told us.
The entire bowling world doesnt frequent BR.com, thankfully.
These exclusions are enough for me not to purchase their product, who knows what else they're not disclosing.
Sort of, there is one prerequisite though, oil volume.charlest wrote:There is no ONE proper use for particles.
Many users of original particle balls thought they could hook on anything.
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Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
Thanks for the backup MegaMav ... Charlest is very knowledgeable and just trying to help..
I think......
I think......
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
Book Average 210+
Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
I think if a manufacturer does not post the particle inclusion on his website OR drill sheet, its not considered common knowledge.
The entire bowling world doesnt frequent BR.com, thankfully.
But my point was they, at least, Eric, was not intentionally trying to hide it.
FYI He has revealed more than one secret that Phil wouldhave preferred that he not reveal.
These exclusions are enough for me not to purchase their product, who knows what else they're not disclosing.
Please. You know better than that. If you learned every "fact" that every manufacturer had held back, you'd never buy any ball fromany of them.
Why do you continue to use the Proactive Jade and the Imperial Quantum, when Brunswick OBVIOUSLY lied about the particles in the Total Inferno?
Sorry, even that's not true. The RotoGrip Venus is just one current example. It's a light to medium-light oil ball. Many of the first AZO balls used particles and they were medium-light to medium oil. Hardly a volume.Sort of, there is one prerequisite though, oil volume.
Many Columbia300 particle pearl balls (from the SanAntonio Columbia)
were only for medium-ligh tot medium oil. The Ego was for that amount oil.
Volume is NOT a prerequisite for particle balls.
Right handed
Speed: 13.5 -14.5 at pin deck
Rev Rate: 275 - 350
Axis rotation: 45*
Axis tilt: 17*
PAP: 5" x 0"
Speed: 13.5 -14.5 at pin deck
Rev Rate: 275 - 350
Axis rotation: 45*
Axis tilt: 17*
PAP: 5" x 0"
- MegaMav
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- Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
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- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 14
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
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- Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
- Location: Malta, NY
Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
As far as I'm concerned, if its not on a readily available public document distributed with the ball, its being withheld.charlest wrote: But my point was they, at least, Eric, was not intentionally trying to hide it.
FYI He has revealed more than one secret that Phil would have preferred that he not reveal.
Because I like the look they give, its unique to me.charlest wrote: Why do you continue to use the Proactive Jade and the Imperial Quantum, when Brunswick OBVIOUSLY lied about the particles in the Total Inferno?
I never bought the Total Inferno because they wouldnt keep their story straight on particle or not.
I'm not going to get into a quote war with you on this.charlest wrote:Volume is NOT a prerequisite for particle balls.
We'll be civil, and agree to disagree for now, and keep the original topic open for discussion.
- purduepaul
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Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
Wow leave for 20 hours and see what happens.
Particle balls have their place, but honestly they are generally used to even out backend reaction. It sounds like certain people have gotten caught up in the marketing of bowling balls rather than see what they do. If you like even reaction, cough Eric cough, particle balls work. For me on the other hand, I like mica flake, I like my Morich LevRG Response, but I generally do not have luck with certain particle packages. Just like anything, just because bowling ball companies say its this or that, does not mean its the whole truth.
To quote Mo Pinel, "Marketing is another word for lying"
Particle balls have their place, but honestly they are generally used to even out backend reaction. It sounds like certain people have gotten caught up in the marketing of bowling balls rather than see what they do. If you like even reaction, cough Eric cough, particle balls work. For me on the other hand, I like mica flake, I like my Morich LevRG Response, but I generally do not have luck with certain particle packages. Just like anything, just because bowling ball companies say its this or that, does not mean its the whole truth.
To quote Mo Pinel, "Marketing is another word for lying"
Paul Ridenour
former Sr Research Engineer at USBC
Radical Bowling Technologies Staffer
former Sr Research Engineer at USBC
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Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
paul is the levrg response mica flake? I asked that question earlier and nobody knew what i was asking. I get the feel from the ball that it is particle. Does it fall into the category of one of the balls you can surface with a rougher grit and it intensifys the backend more than the skid. ?
- purduepaul
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Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
The ball is particle, however its mica flake and another particle that I am not at liberty to say. It's a great ball for when you need to control the middle of the lane. Remember the rule is particle balls tend to be midlane rolly type of bowling balls, not length and snap. If you are looking for length snap I would recommend either the frenzy or craze both are great for that.elgavachon wrote:paul is the levrg response mica flake? I asked that question earlier and nobody knew what i was asking. I get the feel from the ball that it is particle. Does it fall into the category of one of the balls you can surface with a rougher grit and it intensifys the backend more than the skid. ?
Paul Ridenour
former Sr Research Engineer at USBC
Radical Bowling Technologies Staffer
former Sr Research Engineer at USBC
Radical Bowling Technologies Staffer
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- Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
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- Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
- Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
- Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
- Location: Northern California
Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
Charlest.. in reality and for all particles... no ... heavy oil is not a prerequisite..MegaMav wrote:
but I think Megamav was referring to the super biting , supposedly big hooking particle balls that came out that looked like you threw your ball in the parking lot... these gave particles a bad name and made consumers and manufactures run for their lives from particle balls.
And all Megamav and I are saying is that the companies aren't touting their balls as the newest heavy hooking PARTICLE ball... the fact that some guy is releasing it on BR.com and somebody else in the company isn't too happy about that means that there is some sort of hiding going on...
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
Book Average 210+
Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
JW,
They're all hiding something from the consumer (us). Every single manufacturer. I can't tell the number and kind of secrets that come to the light of day through conversations. Some I've sworn not to reveal, some I can't even remember - there are so many.
Most times, it's just as Paul has intimated- there are some details that people don't like but that are still used because the ball reactions that people DEMAND require them.
Other ones are of the childish sort, like the new surface that started with the Virtual Gravity: P500 grit forllowed by 4000 grit, yet was advertised as ONLY "P4000 grit". Now some manufacturers admit to it, while others continue to "hide" it.
Then (the above does not cover particles at all) there's all the particles that are particles, the particles that aren't considered particles and the balls that have particles that you really don't know about, plus the ones that people think have particles but really don't.
There's a saying I used to quote until I got tired of it because noone listened:
"You buy a ball reaction; you don't buy a ball."
In other words, Don't sweat the small stuff.
They're all hiding something from the consumer (us). Every single manufacturer. I can't tell the number and kind of secrets that come to the light of day through conversations. Some I've sworn not to reveal, some I can't even remember - there are so many.
Most times, it's just as Paul has intimated- there are some details that people don't like but that are still used because the ball reactions that people DEMAND require them.
Other ones are of the childish sort, like the new surface that started with the Virtual Gravity: P500 grit forllowed by 4000 grit, yet was advertised as ONLY "P4000 grit". Now some manufacturers admit to it, while others continue to "hide" it.
Then (the above does not cover particles at all) there's all the particles that are particles, the particles that aren't considered particles and the balls that have particles that you really don't know about, plus the ones that people think have particles but really don't.
There's a saying I used to quote until I got tired of it because noone listened:
"You buy a ball reaction; you don't buy a ball."
In other words, Don't sweat the small stuff.
Right handed
Speed: 13.5 -14.5 at pin deck
Rev Rate: 275 - 350
Axis rotation: 45*
Axis tilt: 17*
PAP: 5" x 0"
Speed: 13.5 -14.5 at pin deck
Rev Rate: 275 - 350
Axis rotation: 45*
Axis tilt: 17*
PAP: 5" x 0"
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- Member
- Posts: 915
- Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
- THS Average: 210
- Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
- Speed: 17 mph
- Axis Tilt: 17
- Axis Rotation: 45+
- Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
- Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
- Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
- Location: Northern California
Re: If we could get a re-do on Particle Balls...
Charlest.. understood.. we are on the same page..
I'm sure there are tons of things going on that we don't know about.. some that could crumble the industry, a ball company , or particular ball line.
I'm sure there are tons of things going on that we don't know about.. some that could crumble the industry, a ball company , or particular ball line.
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
Book Average 210+