*NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by MegaMav »

Triplicate wrote:This is splitting hairs here based on my extensive experience and testing.
Can you go into more detail on this?
Do you have experience with CAD software and simulations with other manufacturers?

Im not splitting hairs here because making assumptions isnt exact, and with a layout like this where the difference of 1/2" can mean clipping the hole, assumptions are dangerous. I want ZERO blind faith outside of testing the flare with visual confirmation unless you're willing to support fixing a problem if it doesnt work out.

When you simulate for other manufacturers outside of the Ebonite umbrella, please make it clear you are doing so. If I find you are not including this disclaimer I will continue to call you out on it. I want people to know EXACTLY what they're getting into with this layout, short cuts rarely work out over the long term.

Core numbers are only half the story, volume and shape are the other half.

I am protecting the interests of our members here.
I do appreciate your simulations, they may be close in some cases, and closer with Ebonite products, but saying the word EXACT in this case is dangerous.
There isnt much room for error, as you saw, I hope you understand.

-Eric
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by dukecrimson »

MathIsTruth wrote:
There is more to publish but until then, Mo recommends using an 85x3 1/2"x35 DA layout for High Track bowlers and a 90x4"x50 DA Layout for Low and Medium Track bowlers when choosing asymmetrical balls. There is more to come in the very near future on all of this.


My PAP is greater than 5", so should I be using the PIN beside the ring finger layout or 85x3.5x35 for a Asymm ball?

If I'm using the PIN beside the ring finger, does the location of the PSA matter? Or should I aim to place the CG at the center-grip?

Many Thanks. =)
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by russelldean »

I drilled the Motionhole in my Urethane Karma today. My eyes saw the ball retain spin longer, and wet flares decrease from about 4 1/2" to 3 3/4. I had to square up 2 and 1 to make the corner. Not what i was hoping for.
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by Rob590 »

Rob590 wrote:Hi all,

I was discussing the possibility of drilling the MOtion Hole for my good buddy (and favorite layout and surface tester). He has new and undrilled 15lb AMF OMG! Pearl on which we would test it out.

His stats are (regular thumb bowler):
21,5 mph off hand
520 rpm
17° tilt
normal rotation
PAP coordinates 3-1/8" over & 1/8" up

Any thoughts?

Cheers,

Rob
It is a bit dull to quote myself, but I drilled the ball for him. It was a bit of a guessing game but I placed the pin 1/2" dead center above ring finger. I didn't translate that into DA, we just blindly went for it.
He threw the ball with about 10 layers of tape on MOtion hole location to see (and hear) the ball thumping if flare rings hit the "hole". Everything was OK so I drilled the hole.

Lanes were V100 wood, not being reoiled since sunday.

Without hole he got nice length (for toasted lane) with snappy reaction on the backend. Anything missed was badly punished (few splits and few 2 or 3 pin combinations). He did boost up speed a bit.

I drilled the 7/8" hole 4" deep.

He got stronger reaction with devastating action through the pins. But the thing that he liked the most was larger margin for error.

He will get back to me when he tries it out on HPL9000 and Anvilane.

Cheers,

Rob
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by MathIsTruth »

MegaMav wrote: IF its an Ebonite International ball.
Core shapes are all different in different balls with similar numbers.
Your simulations will not be exact.


Very true!! Core shape does matter. There will be times that mass properties will be similar but you can not make that conclusion for all balls.

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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by MegaMav »

russelldean wrote:I drilled the Motionhole in my Urethane Karma today. My eyes saw the ball retain spin longer, and wet flares decrease from about 4 1/2" to 3 3/4. I had to square up 2 and 1 to make the corner. Not what i was hoping for.
Russ,

Can you go into depth what you did?
Tape, hole location, size, depth?

I probably would have chosen a reactive ball.
I noticed there wasnt a big/undeniabe difference in reaction until I went over the 1" hole size.
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by MathIsTruth »


I am surprised by how quickly this thread took off and the level of interest with the asymmetrical balls. I want to remind everyone that no work on asymmetrical MOtion Holes have been published and we are continuing our research in that area. We will not publish any results on asymmetrical MOtion Holes until we have finished with our studies but every test MO has completed to this point has been successful. Look for more specific information in the future, I am sure we will post here on bowlingchat before anywhere else.

Symmetrical balls on the other hand have been thoroughly tested and I posted drilling instructions in an earlier post. Jason Milligan with the USBC also contributed to our studies by using Blueprint software and tested every symmetrical ball in the EBI lineup. He used a MOtion Hole 10" from the pin, like we recommend, and the results closely resembled our findings and further strengthened the notion that core shape does matter.



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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by russelldean »

Eric,
I used a 1 1/8 hole, 3 1/2 inches deep. Exactly 10 inches from the pin. The karma had become weak, after getting some games on it. It was the only ball with appropriate pin and no hole, so i decided to give it a try.
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by MegaMav »

The recommendation is 4", but im not sure how much difference another 1/2" is.
You can really go as deep as 4 1/4".

Worth a shot, this is new to me, I havent tried it on a weak covered ball.
My Frenzy tester is next as an asymmetric.
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by Triplicate »

MegaMav wrote: IF its an Ebonite International ball.
Core shapes are all different in different balls with similar numbers.
Your simulations will not be exact.
Perhaps you misinterpreted what I said. To clarify, I never said the simulation would be exact. I said I would report the exact numbers output from BluePrint.

Also re-read post 80 where I agreed with you that it was not exact. Actually no simulation is ever exact. Please don't misconstrue my remarks. I'm sorry if you took this the wrong way.
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by Triplicate »

MegaMav wrote: Can you go into more detail on this?
Do you have experience with CAD software and simulations with other manufacturers?
What's the relevance with this line of questioning?
MegaMav wrote: not splitting hairs here because making assumptions isnt exact, and with a layout like this where the difference of 1/2" can mean clipping the hole, assumptions are dangerous.

I want ZERO blind faith outside of testing the flare with visual confirmation unless you're willing to support fixing a problem if it doesnt work out.
I know all of this already. Please re-read post 80, in context, where I said "These other very small differences don't matter here and besides your still welcome to use the general tape method described here to confirm if this makes you nervous." You can choose to use simulation results or not. It's up to the individual however I'm still saying test with tape regardless before drilling.
MegaMav wrote:When you simulate for other manufacturers outside of the Ebonite umbrella, please make it clear you are doing so. If I find you are not including this disclaimer I will continue to call you out on it. I want people to know EXACTLY what they're getting into with this layout, short cuts rarely work out over the long term.

Core numbers are only half the story, volume and shape are the other half.
I can post a disclaimer, (see also comment below on this) if you provide it as a sticky, then I can link to it if required.

MegaMav wrote:I am protecting the interests of our members here.
I do appreciate your simulations, they may be close in some cases, and closer with Ebonite products, but saying the word EXACT in this case is dangerous.
There isnt much room for error, as you saw, I hope you understand.

-Eric
Yes indeed I understand completely...

Again please see post 80 on how the work "EXACT" was used in context.

I'm glad the simulations are useful and appreciated.

Regarding "protecting the interests of our members"

All members here are contributors in some way or another. That includes you and me. As the administrator here you need to include a section on this forum for a general disclaimer not only to protect yourself but also to protect all the membership.

I think you need to point visitors, members, contributors etc. to the area where they can read and accept the terms of this disclaimer before posting and/or before taking away any information that has been posted here and used for personal or commercial use and/or activities. This disclaimer should be in plane site and always readily available. I'd replace or relocate the MAP button on the top bar and update this location for the link to the disclaimer but this is entirely up to you.

I think all forums (this includes members/monitors and administrators) should be protected from legal action or other forms of retaliation or financial burden by the use of a basic disclaimer.

I've looked and I don't see any general disclaimer already here. If I've missed the standard disclaimer already here then please provide a link to same and ignore all of this.

I hope I've answered all your questions and addressed your concerns.
High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (2), 11 in a row (18)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by Triplicate »

MathIsTruth wrote:

Very true!! Core shape does matter. There will be times that mass properties will be similar but you can not make that conclusion for all balls.

Exactly, I know, agree and understand this issue very well. Also, see other relative comments above
High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (2), 11 in a row (18)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
HOF induction - 2 (1 Local and 1 Provincial)
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by MegaMav »

Tripicate,

There is a Terms of Service you agree to when you register.

Im not posting a sticky for you.
Im not amending the terms of service for you.
Im not changing the link bar for you.

If you are asked to model for a Storm ball, or any brand outside of Ebonite, you either:

#1. Decline to model it because its not designed to be modeled by Blueprint.
#2. Disclaim that you're using a particular Ebonite ball to model it.

This is the last post on this issue.
Lets get back to the original topic, the MOtion hole.

Thank you.
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by Triplicate »

MathIsTruth wrote:
I am surprised by how quickly this thread took off and the level of interest with the asymmetrical balls. I want to remind everyone that no work on asymmetrical MOtion Holes have been published and we are continuing our research in that area. We will not publish any results on asymmetrical MOtion Holes until we have finished with our studies but every test MO has completed to this point has been successful. Look for more specific information in the future, I am sure we will post here on bowlingchat before anywhere else.

Symmetrical balls on the other hand have been thoroughly tested and I posted drilling instructions in an earlier post. Jason Milligan with the USBC also contributed to our studies by using Blueprint software and tested every symmetrical ball in the EBI lineup. He used a MOtion Hole 10" from the pin, like we recommend, and the results closely resembled our findings and further strengthened the notion that core shape does matter.

Are you saying the hole was always exactly 10" from the pin on all these symmetrical balls?

Was the hole always equal distance between he wet and dry flares after drilling?
High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (2), 11 in a row (18)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
HOF induction - 2 (1 Local and 1 Provincial)
Is this helpful? Then Click the Image on the bottom right.
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by dukecrimson »

Hmmm... No offense here...
But according to my local proshop driller, this technique existed quite a long time ago where the balance hole is punched more than 9" away from the PIN...

He also commented that the position of the PIN plays a part and it should not be a generic position for either a high or low tracker.

Any comments on this?
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by russelldean »

9 inch holes went through the pap, from the center of grip. This 10 inch hole going vertical from the pin, will end up closer to 12-13 inches from the center of grip.
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by dukecrimson »

I see...
Btw, wads ur PAP?

Did u use the PIN above ring finger or PIN beside ring finger layout for this MOtion hole?
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by triggerman »

Ive been following this thread for some time, and i have a ball I want to try this on. I love the roll/motion, everything about it is spot on, BUT I leave a considerable amount of single pins, lots of flat tens, and 7 pins, rarely the 8 or 9 mostly corner. My question becomes. I have this ball drilled 70x5.5x30 and my pap is over 5 up 0 this drilling results in pin over bridge cg in palm, ball specs are as follows 15#2 oz, 2.65 top 3.25 pin, 2.478 rg, .053 diff (Lordfield Judgement, particle hybrid cover)
the vid talks about pin beside ring finger, am i gonna be off base with pin over bridge to do this drilling?
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by MegaMav »

Yes, please follow the directions on the video for the best results.
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Re: *NEW* - MOtion Hole - Video - How To & Demonstration

Post by triggerman »

MegaMav wrote:Yes, please follow the directions on the video for the best results.

yes I am ok with the drilling as is, or no I should move the pin beside the ring?
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