The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Ask Mo Pinel and the bowling industry's best your general questions, and get straight answers.

Moderators: Mo Pinel, purduepaul, MathIsTruth, ballspinner

Forum rules
Ask Mo Pinel and the bowling industry's best your questions, and get straight answers.
This forum is moderated exclusively by Mo & Friends.
Slap
Certified Coach
Certified Coach
Posts: 187
Joined: January 22nd, 2010, 1:51 pm

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by Slap »

Mo Pinel wrote: Good to see you here. How's that MoRich ball working out?
Which one? I currently own six Morich balls. :D

The RESPONSE is GREAT! Your advice was spot on. The grip changes, layout and surface are working very well for me. I'm going to transition to that grip in all my equipment.

I actually planned to ask your assistance on another ball. My birth day is in a couple weeks and I'm going to treat myself to a ball. I like the reaction shape of the RESPONSE and I would like a similar look on higher volumes of oil. Both my leagues rotate Kegel challenge and sport patterns so I see good volumes.

That MANIA ball looks pretty nice...
User avatar
RevZiLLa
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 260
Joined: January 26th, 2010, 8:11 pm
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by RevZiLLa »

RevZiLLa wrote:
You'll pay for that!

Glad to see you having fun. Are you home for the snow or have you traveled South?
Image
=======================================================
RevZ
User avatar
Mo Pinel
Rest In Peace
Rest In Peace
Posts: 10054
Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by Mo Pinel »

Slap wrote: Which one? I currently own six Morich balls. :D

The RESPONSE is GREAT! Your advice was spot on. The grip changes, layout and surface are working very well for me. I'm going to transition to that grip in all my equipment.

I actually planned to ask your assistance on another ball. My birth day is in a couple weeks and I'm going to treat myself to a ball. I like the reaction shape of the RESPONSE and I would like a similar look on higher volumes of oil. Both my leagues rotate Kegel challenge and sport patterns so I see good volumes.

That MANIA ball looks pretty nice...
Good eye! mania it is! Same layout as the LevRG Response.
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
User avatar
ferocious
Member
Member
Posts: 6
Joined: January 28th, 2010, 5:37 am

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by ferocious »

RevZiLLa wrote: Image
Wow, my head is "spinning."
Slap
Certified Coach
Certified Coach
Posts: 187
Joined: January 22nd, 2010, 1:51 pm

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by Slap »

Mo Pinel wrote:
Good eye! mania it is! Same layout as the LevRG Response.
Any recommended ball specs?
The Response is 40 x 4 1/2 x 20 with no hole
User avatar
Mo Pinel
Rest In Peace
Rest In Peace
Posts: 10054
Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by Mo Pinel »

Slap wrote: Any recommended ball specs?
The Response is 40 x 4 1/2 x 20 with no hole
Let's do this one 40 / 4" / 20. If the cg is close to in line, a hole will probably be needed. The universal release date is Feb. 8th. Roll it first, then we'll do the balance hole based on how it rolls.
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
User avatar
cgeorg
Member
Member
Posts: 158
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 8:08 pm
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 x 1/2
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by cgeorg »

Great response by MathIsTruth. It seems that you're saying the effect of MB is that it changes the migratory path of the spin axis, making it a different shape of ellipse.

[quote=MathIsTruth]We believe that the ball will increase angular velocity as the spin axis passes the Pin to Spin Line.[/quote]
Is the theory that as the ball approaches the major axis of the ellipse (which would be on the pin-to-spin line), that the axis migration speeds up, and once it crosses this line towards the minor axis, it slows back down again? This would result in maximum track flare (and friction) at the pin-to-spin line. A greater intermediate diff would create a more elongated ellipse, which would increase the magnitude of change in axis migration speed. It would also presumably cause a visible difference in the spacing between flare rings. Or is "what actually happens at the pin-to-spin line?" the remaining unknown?
CMGBB - Bowling tips
BowlSK - Bowling score keeper and stats tracker
My BowlSK

That my boy... that's pro quality.
User avatar
Mo Pinel
Rest In Peace
Rest In Peace
Posts: 10054
Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by Mo Pinel »

I'll let Math Is Truth deal with this in detail, but in the avi file Steve showed me, it actually accelerated just beyond the "pin to spin" line as the slope of the RG contour changed. Steve, please handle the detail of this really good question.
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
User avatar
cgeorg
Member
Member
Posts: 158
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 8:08 pm
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 x 1/2
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by cgeorg »

Mo Pinel wrote:I'll let Math Is Truth deal with this in detail, but in the avi file Steve showed me, it actually accelerated just beyond the "pin to spin" line as the slope of the RG contour changed. Steve, please handle the detail of this really good question.
That had been my original thought, but I was thinking that the hook phase would be triggered by maximum friction. Now that I revisit it:

There is more oil in the front of the lane, decreasing as the ball travels down the lane. Therefore, getting the axis migration of the ball to reduce as the ball travels down-lane will create a bit more push - as the friction of the lane increases, the friction of the coverstock would decrease. At some point during this reducing axis migration, the pin-to-spin line would be hit. Afterwards, the axis migration might begin to pick back up again, creating more track flare and friction. The ball and lane are both producing more friction at this point, creating the hook phase.

If this is the case, it might also indicate that matching the distance between pin-to-spin and PAP to the length of oil you will be bowling on is very important. If the spin axis reaches the pin-to-spin line 30 feet down the lane on the Shark, you are wasting the strength of the core where there is no friction. Likewise, if the spin axis doesn't reach the pin-to-spin line until it's 50 feet down the lane on the Cheetah, you will probably... well, who knows what that would look like.
CMGBB - Bowling tips
BowlSK - Bowling score keeper and stats tracker
My BowlSK

That my boy... that's pro quality.
User avatar
MathIsTruth
Industry Professional
Industry Professional
Posts: 548
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 5:18 pm
Preferred Company: MoRich/Radical
Location: Washington, WV

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by MathIsTruth »

cgeorg wrote:Great response by MathIsTruth. It seems that you're saying the effect of MB is that it changes the migratory path of the spin axis, making it a different shape of ellipse.

""""We believe that the ball will increase angular velocity as the spin axis passes the Pin to Spin Line."""

Is the theory that as the ball approaches the major axis of the ellipse (which would be on the pin-to-spin line), that the axis migration speeds up, and once it crosses this line towards the minor axis, it slows back down again? This would result in maximum track flare (and friction) at the pin-to-spin line. A greater intermediate diff would create a more elongated ellipse, which would increase the magnitude of change in axis migration speed. It would also presumably cause a visible difference in the spacing between flare rings. Or is "what actually happens at the pin-to-spin line?" the remaining unknown?
Before I respond to this question in detail, I would like to post a pdf file containing a picture of a MoRich Nsane axis migration. The drilling layout on the drilled ball is 18x5.25"x22. I will respond later in the day. Thanks for your insight and patience!!

This is Mo Pinel writing:

Let me clarify this picture since the marks on the ball are mine. There are three Xs on the ball, moving counter clockwise. It took an hour to get the marks right. The first X (at the beginning of the axis migration) is the PAP at release. The second X is the PAP at the end of the oil pattern (PAP of the last oil ring). The final X is the PAP at the head pin. Look at how far the axis migrated from the end of the oil pattern to the pins. This enormous amount of travel of the migrating PAP from the oil line to the pins is caused by lane friction AND the angular acceleration of the migrating axis on the RG contour. By the way the oil pattern was 38' long.

GOOD STUFF! HEH?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
Mo Pinel
Rest In Peace
Rest In Peace
Posts: 10054
Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by Mo Pinel »

MathIsTruth wrote: Before I respond to this question in detail, I would like to post a pdf file containing a picture of a MoRich Nsane axis migration. The drilling layout on the drilled ball is 18x5.25"x22. I will respond later in the day. Thanks for your insight and patience!!
I forgot we had that picture. IT'S GREAT! It really shows about 65% of an RG contour. It's accurate, but some will find it hard to believe. A high diff. ratio ball and a high total diff. ball is necessary to get this migratory path. The 'NSane Lev drilled this way qualifies on both counts. Good stuff!
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
User avatar
MathIsTruth
Industry Professional
Industry Professional
Posts: 548
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 5:18 pm
Preferred Company: MoRich/Radical
Location: Washington, WV

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by MathIsTruth »

cgeorg wrote:Great response by MathIsTruth. It seems that you're saying the effect of MB is that it changes the migratory path of the spin axis, making it a different shape of ellipse.
Is the theory that as the ball approaches the major axis of the ellipse (which would be on the pin-to-spin line), that the axis migration speeds up, and once it crosses this line towards the minor axis, it slows back down again? This would result in maximum track flare (and friction) at the pin-to-spin line. A greater intermediate diff would create a more elongated ellipse, which would increase the magnitude of change in axis migration speed. It would also presumably cause a visible difference in the spacing between flare rings. Or is "what actually happens at the pin-to-spin line?" the remaining unknown?

The migratory path of the spin axis for ALL bowling balls is determined by the RG profile of the ball. The RG profile is a consequence of the Low, Intermediate and High RG values along with the Total and Intermediate Differentials of the ball. The spin axis will migrate and maintain an RG value which is equal to the RG value of the original PAP. In EVERY bowling ball used, the migratory path is elliptical in nature. Symmetrically cored bowling balls also exhibit this behavior but due to their low Intermediate Differential, their path will be less elliptical. You can see from the MoRich Nsane axis migration picture in post #50, that the spin axis migration is in fact an elliptical path which is centered about the PSA.

We believe that the precessional rate of the migrating axis may increase slightly while the spin axis is approaching the Pin to Spin line but will accelerate AFTER the spin axis crosses the Pin to Spin Line. We also believe that the acceleration of the migrating spin axis will be greater in bowling balls with higher Diff Ratios than lower Diff Ratios due to the slope of the RG contours.

I have included a picture below which will compare the migratory path of the spin axis for four bowling balls with the same drilling layout of 10x4.25”x20 with a P4 balance hole. The axis migration can be seen in blue for the MoRich Nsane, in purple for the MoRich Frenzy, in orange for the MoRich Mojave and in green for a symmetrical cored ball.

NOTE: I made an error in post #25 that I would like to correct, the Pin to Spin line falls on the minor axis, not the major axis. This can be seen after close examination in the MoRich Nsane picture above. I have corrected this mistake in post #25 for future reference, my apologies. Thank you for this very insightful question!!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
Mo Pinel
Rest In Peace
Rest In Peace
Posts: 10054
Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by Mo Pinel »

Great work, Steve. HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES!
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
User avatar
cgeorg
Member
Member
Posts: 158
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 8:08 pm
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 x 1/2
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by cgeorg »

It would be nice to see the migratory path with the pin-spin line a bit farther from the PAP, so we could see how quickly the spin axis moves on each side of it. Are the marked points the spin axis after each consecutive revolution of the ball? I notice a slow-down, then speed-up, for the NSane just before the thumbhole.
CMGBB - Bowling tips
BowlSK - Bowling score keeper and stats tracker
My BowlSK

That my boy... that's pro quality.
J_w73
Member
Member
Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
THS Average: 210
Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by J_w73 »

how far down the lane is the 'Nsane on that curved axis migration? Is that migration a real world scenario or just an example of where the axis would end up if given enough time/length on the lane in the oil ??
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
User avatar
MathIsTruth
Industry Professional
Industry Professional
Posts: 548
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 5:18 pm
Preferred Company: MoRich/Radical
Location: Washington, WV

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by MathIsTruth »

cgeorg wrote:It would be nice to see the migratory path with the pin-spin line a bit farther from the PAP, so we could see how quickly the spin axis moves on each side of it. Are the marked points the spin axis after each consecutive revolution of the ball? I notice a slow-down, then speed-up, for the NSane just before the thumbhole.
I should have explained the picture in more detail. Again, my apologies... If we connect the dots for each of the balls on this overlapping picture then we would obtain the real life scenario of the spin axis migrations. Each of the points chosen in the illustration have an RG value equal to the RG of the PAP. These locations show the path only and in no way can the precessional rate of the migrating axis be derived. My intention with sharing this picture was to illustrate the differences in axis migration depending upon core design.
User avatar
MathIsTruth
Industry Professional
Industry Professional
Posts: 548
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 5:18 pm
Preferred Company: MoRich/Radical
Location: Washington, WV

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by MathIsTruth »

J_w73 wrote:how far down the lane is the 'Nsane on that curved axis migration? Is that migration a real world scenario or just an example of where the axis would end up if given enough time/length on the lane in the oil ??

ALL the points used on the picture for each of the four axis migrations were calculated and verified to have an RG value equal to the RG of the original PAP. Post #50 includes a picture of an actual axis migration for a MoRich Nsane with a drilled layout of 22x5.25"x18.
J_w73
Member
Member
Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
THS Average: 210
Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by J_w73 »

cgeorg wrote:It would be nice to see the migratory path with the pin-spin line a bit farther from the PAP, so we could see how quickly the spin axis moves on each side of it. Are the marked points the spin axis after each consecutive revolution of the ball? I notice a slow-down, then speed-up, for the NSane just before the thumbhole.
I agree.. would love to see more examples of axis migrations on various drill angles..
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
Slap
Certified Coach
Certified Coach
Posts: 187
Joined: January 22nd, 2010, 1:51 pm

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by Slap »

Mo Pinel wrote: Let's do this one 40 / 4" / 20. If the cg is close to in line, a hole will probably be needed. The universal release date is Feb. 8th. Roll it first, then we'll do the balance hole based on how it rolls.
Feb 8th, brillant! I'm tempted to pre-order one...

Another question. I have a LevRG 55 x 4 x 35 with a P1 hole. How would the Mania layed per your instructions above compare/contrast to this ball?
User avatar
Mo Pinel
Rest In Peace
Rest In Peace
Posts: 10054
Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: The how and why behind MB/ Asymmetrical balls

Post by Mo Pinel »

Slap wrote: Let's do this one 40 / 4" / 20. If the cg is close to in line, a hole will probably be needed. The universal release date is Feb. 8th. Roll it first, then we'll do the balance hole based on how it rolls.

Feb 8th, brillant! I'm tempted to pre-order one...

Another question. I have a LevRG 55 x 4 x 35 with a P1 hole. How would the Mania layed per your instructions above compare/contrast to this ball?
The mania will have more hook and read friction harder. The LevRG will be for lesser oil and shorter patterns. They will work well together.
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
Locked