EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great read!

Ask Mo Pinel and the bowling industry's best your general questions, and get straight answers.

Moderators: Mo Pinel, purduepaul, MathIsTruth, ballspinner

Forum rules
Ask Mo Pinel and the bowling industry's best your questions, and get straight answers.
This forum is moderated exclusively by Mo & Friends.
Locked
User avatar
Triplicate
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 1410
Joined: September 2nd, 2010, 12:04 am
THS Average: 220
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 x 1 1/2
Speed: 16-18 at Foul Line
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 7-10
Axis Rotation: 45+-
Location: Canada

EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great read!

Post by Triplicate »

This is some very impressive stuff for a piece of software.

What do you think about this and the part about "Effective Rev. Rate"?


http://www.blueprintbowling.com/Blog/Po ... rcats.aspx
High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (2), 11 in a row (18)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
HOF induction - 2 (1 Local and 1 Provincial)
Is this helpful? Then Click the Image on the bottom right.
User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great r

Post by EricHartwell »

Triplicate wrote:This is some very impressive stuff for a piece of software.

What do you think about this and the part about "Effective Rev. Rate"?


http://www.blueprintbowling.com/Blog/Po ... rcats.aspx
From the data presented it seems that the higher rev rate will make up for higher tilt, making it effective. More revs allow the ball to effectively loose tilt.
It gives a relationship from revs to tilt much like the speed vs revs.
So is there going to be a term matched for Speed vs. Revs vs. tilt? Or is this already taken into consideration with the dual angle ratio guide?
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
User avatar
Triplicate
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 1410
Joined: September 2nd, 2010, 12:04 am
THS Average: 220
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 x 1 1/2
Speed: 16-18 at Foul Line
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 7-10
Axis Rotation: 45+-
Location: Canada

Re: EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great r

Post by Triplicate »

EricHartwell wrote: From the data presented it seems that the higher rev rate will make up for higher tilt, making it effective. More revs allow the ball to effectively loose tilt.
It gives a relationship from revs to tilt much like the speed vs revs.
So is there going to be a term matched for Speed vs. Revs vs. tilt? Or is this already taken into consideration with the dual angle ratio guide?
With regards to ERR, my interpretation is this... I think what they are saying is...

- if bowler A has 0 deg. tilt and his RPMs are 350, his ball motion on this given pattern will be as shown in the diagrams under the topic of "Axis Tilt Test"

- if bowler B has 10 deg. tilt and his RPMs are 355.4, his ball motion on this given pattern will be as shown in the diagrams under the topic of "Axis Tilt Test"

- if bowler C has 20 deg. tilt and his RPMs are 372.5, his ball motion on this given pattern will be as shown in the diagrams under the topic of "Axis Tilt Test"

- if bowler D has 30 deg. tilt and his RPMs are 404.2, his ball motion on this given pattern will be as shown in the diagrams under the topic of "Axis Tilt Test"

So... these four completely different bowlers (A,B,C and D) ALL HAVE THE SAME BALL MOTION on the lane. All four threw the ball with the same speed in these test!

Most people believe the higher RPM guy has some sort of advantage and the answer here is that if increase RPM is accompanied with increased tilt the ball motion will typically be the same given the guidlines in the chart.

Yes he has more RPM but he is NOT and will NOT be hooking the ball more than a lower RPM (high track) low tilt player and YES you clearly will see his higher revs but his effective rev rate will not be an advantage since his ball motion is identical.

All comments, opinions are welcome!

I hope this helps!
High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (2), 11 in a row (18)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
HOF induction - 2 (1 Local and 1 Provincial)
Is this helpful? Then Click the Image on the bottom right.
elgavachon
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3174
Joined: January 18th, 2010, 9:21 pm

Re: EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great r

Post by elgavachon »

EricHartwell wrote: From the data presented it seems that the higher rev rate will make up for higher tilt, making it effective. More revs allow the ball to effectively loose tilt.
It gives a relationship from revs to tilt much like the speed vs revs.
So is there going to be a term matched for Speed vs. Revs vs. tilt? Or is this already taken into consideration with the dual angle ratio guide?
Everything was modeled after Mo's recommendations and he has been taking this into account. Some of his earlier posts claimed a bowler was speed dominant do to higher tilt when speed and revs were matched. It was confusing to add it as the same variable, so he kept it as two.
User avatar
LabRat
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 1170
Joined: July 16th, 2011, 2:12 pm
THS Average: 208
Preferred Company: Storm
Location: Townsville, Australia

Re: EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great r

Post by LabRat »

To possibly state the obvious - the reason for this is that the speed of the ball track; ie the part of the ball in contact with the lane; is identical for each rev rate and tilt combo, since the track circumference is smaller for higher tilt.
Chemistry is like cooking - just don't lick the spoon.
User avatar
Triplicate
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 1410
Joined: September 2nd, 2010, 12:04 am
THS Average: 220
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 x 1 1/2
Speed: 16-18 at Foul Line
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 7-10
Axis Rotation: 45+-
Location: Canada

Re: EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great r

Post by Triplicate »

LabRat wrote:To possibly state the obvious - the reason for this is that the speed of the ball track; ie the part of the ball in contact with the lane; is identical for each rev rate and tilt combo, since the track circumference is smaller for higher tilt.
Precisely :!: That also explains why the higher tilts required proportionately higher RPM's increases due also to moving on a curved surface when consistently increasing tilt by the same 10 deg each time.

To go from 0 to 10 it only took 5.4 extra RPM.
To go from 10 to 20 it took a 17.1 RPM change.
To go from 20 to 30 it took a 31.7 RPM increase.
High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (2), 11 in a row (18)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
HOF induction - 2 (1 Local and 1 Provincial)
Is this helpful? Then Click the Image on the bottom right.
User avatar
kellytehuna
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 2891
Joined: January 18th, 2010, 11:11 pm
THS Average: 195
Positive Axis Point: 3.75", 1" up
Speed: 18
Rev Rate: 480
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 40
Heavy Oil Ball: Morich DestroyR
Medium Oil Ball: Morich Perpetual Motion
Light Oil Ball: Morich Mojave
Preferred Company: Morich
Location: Hazard, KY

Re: EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great r

Post by kellytehuna »

I'm sorry, but the results seem pretty obvious to me. From the get go, I've always viewed tilt and rotation as friction modifiers. Basically speed modifiers. I've always viewed higher tilt and rotation bowlers as higher speed bowlers. With that in mind it seems kind of obvious that if a higher tilt bowler also has a higher rev rate, then they should have a reaction similar to a bowler with slightly less of each. The one thing I DIDN'T have was a way to get the effective rev rate. Now, I do!

What impresses me the most about the study, however, is just how closely Blueprint models the real world results. VERY impressive! The models are super close.
Father, Husband, Bowler, Web developer

15lb Morich DestroyR, Mania, Perpetual Motion, Craze, Frenzy, Mojave
15lb Radical Yeti
15lb Brunswick Slingshot, Avalanche Urethane

Highest score: 279
Highest series: 818
ijohn83
Member
Member
Posts: 121
Joined: October 1st, 2010, 7:48 am
THS Average: 188
Positive Axis Point: 5 3/4 over x 3/4up
Speed: Off the hand: 17.0 MPH
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 3
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: LaneMaster

Re: EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great r

Post by ijohn83 »

So let me get this straight.

Right now I have 200rpm and no tilt.

To get my dream 300rpm I would only need to have an rev rate of 280 if I could, also, get my tilt to 15 deg?

~John
Right Handed
MF - 4 1/8, 1/4 L, 1/8 Rev.
RF - 4 5/16, 5/8 R, 3/8 Rev.
Thumb - 3 1/8" Long, 7/16 Rev, 1/8 R, 47 Deg. oval (27/32 x 1)
PAP: 5 3/4 x 3/4 up
Speed: 18.0 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Rot: 70
Axis Tilt: 3
User avatar
M4R10
Member
Member
Posts: 76
Joined: October 1st, 2010, 11:12 pm
Positive Axis Point: 5-1/8 over, 0 up
Speed: 17 mph off hand
Rev Rate: 390
Axis Tilt: 5-10
Axis Rotation: ~55
Heavy Oil Ball: AMF Mega Recovery, Layout 45* x 3-1/4 x 30*
Medium Oil Ball: Track 715C, Layout 75* x 2-1/8 x 60* P2 Hole
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick Slingshot, Layout 70* x 4-1/4 x 45* DT hole
Preferred Company: whatever fits my need
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great r

Post by M4R10 »

No bragging intended but I think it speaks for the quality of Bowling Chat that the Wiki had this topic covered since 2010. See thread & Wiki below.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1262
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... tguide.xls

However, it was just a theory, so I am absolutely thrilled to see it being tested and confirmed :D

Thanks, for posting this. I haven't read the blueprint blog for a while, so I missed that one.

@John: If you increase your tilt you lower your effective rev rate. With a rev rate of 280 and 15° tilt your effective rev rate would be 279. With 200 rev rate and 0° tilt your effective rev rate would be 206.

Cheers
Mario
millertime0299
Member
Member
Posts: 60
Joined: February 4th, 2012, 2:12 am

Re: EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great r

Post by millertime0299 »

For the common bowling idiot, like myself, what does this mean? I went from having around 7* tilt to now having around 12*. My RPMs have not increased substantially so does this mean that I now have weaker ball motion? Sorry if I'm "dumbing down" this topic but I want to completely understand what this research suggests. Just a bowling hack trying to constantly improve.
User avatar
Triplicate
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 1410
Joined: September 2nd, 2010, 12:04 am
THS Average: 220
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 x 1 1/2
Speed: 16-18 at Foul Line
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 7-10
Axis Rotation: 45+-
Location: Canada

Re: EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great r

Post by Triplicate »

millertime0299 wrote:For the common bowling idiot, like myself, what does this mean? I went from having around 7* tilt to now having around 12*. My RPMs have not increased substantially so does this mean that I now have weaker ball motion? Sorry if I'm "dumbing down" this topic but I want to completely understand what this research suggests. Just a bowling hack trying to constantly improve.
Hi millertime... sounds like you pretty much stayed the same if your RPMs went up just a little with your increase of 5* tilt. I think you get it alright. 8-) Maybe your trying to read more into it than what's really there.

I hope this helps!
High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (2), 11 in a row (18)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
HOF induction - 2 (1 Local and 1 Provincial)
Is this helpful? Then Click the Image on the bottom right.
JohnP
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3432
Joined: January 31st, 2010, 1:04 am
Positive Axis Point: 15 15/16 x 3/16
Speed: 13.5 (Qubica)
Axis Tilt: 13
Axis Rotation: 45
Location: Hawesville KY/Tell City IN

Re: EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great r

Post by JohnP »

Axis tilt plays a large role in determining where the first and second transitions occur. -- JohnP
ads
Member
Member
Posts: 657
Joined: November 22nd, 2014, 6:07 am
THS Average: 205
Positive Axis Point: 5 5/8 up 3/4
Speed: 14 mph off hand
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 60
Location: Hong Kong

Re: EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great r

Post by ads »

Just read the Blueprint Blog http://blueprintbowling.com/Blog/Posts/ ... atter.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and this thread.

Higher tilt = smaller track circumference -> ball rev quicker

Why discounts the rev rate (ERR)? A layman reason I can think of is

"Smaller track circumference -> same ball surface hitting the lane surface (larger bowtie) -> skid more on oil"

Correct me if I am going the wrong direction.
Adrian
Right handed
PAP: 5 1/8 up 3/4
Speed: 15.5 mph (Kegel Specto)
Rev: 350 RPM
Axis tilt: 18-20*
Axis rotation: 60*
MWhite
Member
Member
Posts: 457
Joined: July 4th, 2012, 11:29 pm
Location: Riverside Ca

Re: EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great r

Post by MWhite »

ads wrote:Just read the Blueprint Blog http://blueprintbowling.com/Blog/Posts/ ... atter.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and this thread.

Higher tilt = smaller track circumference -> ball rev quicker

Why discounts the rev rate (ERR)? A layman reason I can think of is

"Smaller track circumference -> same ball surface hitting the lane surface (larger bowtie) -> skid more on oil"

Correct me if I am going the wrong direction.
Effective Rev Rate is not related to track flare, or the size of the bowtie.

A ball rolling with 0 tilt has a larger track circumference than a ball with tilt.

Therefore for a ball with tilt to roll (non-slip) the same distance as a ball with 0 tilt, the ball with tilt must revolve more. Which means it's rev rate must be increased to produce the same length of roll.

Effective Rev Rate = Actual Rev Rate * cos(tilt)
ads
Member
Member
Posts: 657
Joined: November 22nd, 2014, 6:07 am
THS Average: 205
Positive Axis Point: 5 5/8 up 3/4
Speed: 14 mph off hand
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 60
Location: Hong Kong

Re: EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great r

Post by ads »

MWhite wrote:
Effective Rev Rate is not related to track flare, or the size of the bowtie.

A ball rolling with 0 tilt has a larger track circumference than a ball with tilt.

Therefore for a ball with tilt to roll (non-slip) the same distance as a ball with 0 tilt, the ball with tilt must revolve more. Which means it's rev rate must be increased to produce the same length of roll.

Effective Rev Rate = Actual Rev Rate * cos(tilt)

Thanks MWhite.

If a ball's tilt is getting higher, it needs more roll to reach the same distance than a low tilt ball.

As such, when measuring bowlers' release spec, 2 bowlers with same off-hand speed, same rev but the one with higher tilt will be seen as comparatively higher speed or less rev.

is there any chance that a high tilt ball tends to skid more than a lower tilt ball (assume other factors are constant) because of smaller track rings?
Adrian
Right handed
PAP: 5 1/8 up 3/4
Speed: 15.5 mph (Kegel Specto)
Rev: 350 RPM
Axis tilt: 18-20*
Axis rotation: 60*
MWhite
Member
Member
Posts: 457
Joined: July 4th, 2012, 11:29 pm
Location: Riverside Ca

Re: EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great r

Post by MWhite »

ads wrote:

Thanks MWhite.

If a ball's tilt is getting higher, it needs more roll to reach the same distance than a low tilt ball.

As such, when measuring bowlers' release spec, 2 bowlers with same off-hand speed, same rev but the one with higher tilt will be seen as comparatively higher speed or less rev.

is there any chance that a high tilt ball tends to skid more than a lower tilt ball (assume other factors are constant) because of smaller track rings?

The answer is Yes, and No depending on your definition of skid.

If you define of skid only as the 1st of three phases, where the path of the ball is linear, then NO it won't skid more. The Skid phase ends the moment the ball encounters friction. Any side roll (AR) will cause a force on the ball that is not parallel to it's current path, and therefore the path would no longer be linear.

If however you define skid as anytime the ball surface is not in a pure roll (non-slip) then yes, since the ball will have to rev up to a higher rate to eliminate the slip, it will take longer to achieve non-slip.

So effectively higher tilt doesn't increase the length of the skid phase, but it does increase the length of the hook phase.

The rate at which the ball loses tilt, and axis rotation also effect the length of the hook phase.

In addition the higher the rev rate at release, the longer the ball will maintain AR and AT. That would act to increase the length of the hook phase, however the higher the rev rate at release, the closer it is to the rev rate required to reach non-slip, so that will act to decrease the length of the hook phase.
User avatar
russelldean
BCU Graduate Layouts
BCU Graduate Layouts
Posts: 877
Joined: February 14th, 2011, 6:09 am
THS Average: 230
Positive Axis Point: 5 up 1/4
Speed: 20
Rev Rate: 400
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 60
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: pasco wa

Re: EARL vs BluePrint - Effective Rev Rate & more. A great r

Post by russelldean »

The low tilt, lower rpm bowler, may have similar ball motion. The lower tilt bowler will also have the ball in the roll phase for a smaller time, before complete rollout. Wouldn't one assume, this would make for a smaller margin of error regarding speed or directional mistakes? Also, the higher rpm bowler should have a higher rpm rate going through the pins resulting in less deflection?
Please click the Green Button, If i have been helpful..
Locked