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 Post subject: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:30 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Is the distance from a full rollers NAP going to control the ball motion? Can I put the pin 2" from the full rollers NAP and get a low flaring earlier read on a symm?? Also since the VAL can be drawn all the way around the ball can a VAL angle be used for a full roller as well? I am just trying to understand if the typical 45* from center of grip layout can be modified and I can help broaden a full rollers layouts? i think I understand this correctly, but it seems we are just drilling the ball off the NAP for a full roller to reverse the flare direction to keep them off the gripping holes. So it seems there should be a way to change a drill angle and VAL angle for a full roller and modify the ball reaction or am I off on this one??


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:47 am Post Number: #2 Post
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Keep in mind that the other goal is to keep the bowtie around the centre of the grip. If it moves above the fingers or below the thumb you will hit holes.

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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:15 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Can I predict what way and about how much the track will move depending on where and how much the pin is moved??


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:39 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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On full rollers. the VAL is 6 3/4" from the grip centerline. You can put the pin where you want as long as it's in the 7 o'clock orientation to the center of the grip.


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:46 am Post Number: #5 Post
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How does moving the pin change reaction though??


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:40 am Post Number: #6 Post
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tdub36tjt wrote:
How does moving the pin change reaction though??


It just changes the amount of the flare.


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:44 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Ok. So moving it away from the grip center would change the flare like moving a pin closer to axis and moving it towards the center of the grip would be like moving the pin further from axis???


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:32 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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tdub36tjt wrote:
Ok. So moving it away from the grip center would change the flare like moving a pin closer to axis and moving it towards the center of the grip would be like moving the pin further from axis???


On symmetricals, moving the pin either distance from a 3 3/8" pin to PAP distance reduces flare.


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:33 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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For asymmetricals does moving the pin toward grip center from 3 3/8" have the same effect as increasing the pin to PAP distance from 3 3/8" for a 3/4 roller? -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:49 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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JohnP wrote:
For asymmetricals does moving the pin toward grip center from 3 3/8" have the same effect as increasing the pin to PAP distance from 3 3/8" for a 3/4 roller? -- JohnP


It doesn't reduce flare nearly as much.


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:50 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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JohnP wrote:
For asymmetricals does moving the pin toward grip center from 3 3/8" have the same effect as increasing the pin to PAP distance from 3 3/8" for a 3/4 roller? -- JohnP


It doesn't reduce flare nearly as much. Let's ask blueprint to clarify that using his software for a more exact answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:16 am Post Number: #12 Post
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I am having trouble understanding because I understand that moving the pin either way from 3 3/8" from the PAP reduces flare but we are talking about the full roller drill....But you said we are moving the pin closer or further from the center of the grip not the PAP..Unless we are moving it away from or closer to the NAP?? Also reducing flare in a symmetrical with a 2" pin to pap is going to give you a different reaction that reducing flare with a 5" pin to PAP. So when I have someone who is struggling controlling the ball in the back of the lane I don't want to make that worse with a 5" pin to PAP type flare.

I am just trying to understand everything that is happening with a full roller layout. I have numerous full rollers I drill for and several of them are looking for less hook in the back of the lane/more control so outside of drilling them something like 90 x 2.25" x 50 on a symmetrical I am trying to understand how I can achieve a similar ball reaction without worrying about them tracking over the gripping holes?? I know its probably a crap shoot but still trying to get an idea....The more options I can give my full roller customers the better....


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:02 am Post Number: #13 Post
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tdub36tjt wrote:
I am having trouble understanding because I understand that moving the pin either way from 3 3/8" from the PAP reduces flare but we are talking about the full roller drill....But you said we are moving the pin closer or further from the center of the grip not the PAP..Unless we are moving it away from or closer to the NAP?? Also reducing flare in a symmetrical with a 2" pin to pap is going to give you a different reaction that reducing flare with a 5" pin to PAP. So when I have someone who is struggling controlling the ball in the back of the lane I don't want to make that worse with a 5" pin to PAP type flare.

I am just trying to understand everything that is happening with a full roller layout. I have numerous full rollers I drill for and several of them are looking for less hook in the back of the lane/more control so outside of drilling them something like 90 x 2.25" x 50 on a symmetrical I am trying to understand how I can achieve a similar ball reaction without worrying about them tracking over the gripping holes?? I know its probably a crap shoot but still trying to get an idea....The more options I can give my full roller customers the better....


Moving the pin can be measured from the PAP (or NAP), or the center of the grip since the center of the grip is about 6 3/4" from the PAP (or NAP). It's just math.


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:15 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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And my question, since the standard full roller layout places the pin ~3 3/8" from the NAP, is -- does moving the pin away from the NAP (toward grip center) have the same effect on flare for an asymmetrical ball as moving the pin away from the PAP on a 3/4 roller asymmetric layout. If so, there would be very little change in flare. That would mean that to reduce flare significantly the pin would have to be moved to about 1 1/2" from the NAP (5 1/4" from grip center). Then the question becomes, what does that do to the track bowtie and will the ball flare into the gripping holes. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:45 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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JohnP wrote:
And my question, since the standard full roller layout places the pin ~3 3/8" from the NAP, is -- does moving the pin away from the NAP (toward grip center) have the same effect on flare for an asymmetrical ball as moving the pin away from the PAP on a 3/4 roller asymmetric layout. If so, there would be very little change in flare. That would mean that to reduce flare significantly the pin would have to be moved to about 1 1/2" from the NAP (5 1/4" from grip center). Then the question becomes, what does that do to the track bowtie and will the ball flare into the gripping holes. -- JohnP


Keeping the pin in the 7 o'clock position for righties prevents rolling over the holes. Let's wait for an accurate answer from blueprint about the amount of flare on asyms.


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:17 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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OK. Most full rollers want as strong a layout as they can get, but the no thumbers and half thumbers sometimes want a weaker layout. Maybe the 7 o'clock direction and 5 1/2" or so from grip center is the answer. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:11 am Post Number: #17 Post
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Yeah I have several no thumb full rollers that get too much hook with the full roller "leverage" layout...I will be trying a 2" pin to NAP for one of them on the next ball he drills...We'll see how that goes. So when you say 7 o'clock position you mean keep it on a 33* angle from the centerline/center of the grip then right?? Interested to see how this will work out....


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:23 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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Actually, the "classic" full roller layout is 45* to grip center. That's what I assumed Mo was referring to as 7 o'clock, but would actually be 7:30. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:18 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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JohnP wrote:
Actually, the "classic" full roller layout is 45* to grip center. That's what I assumed Mo was referring to as 7 o'clock, but would actually be 7:30. -- JohnP


I use 7 o'clock instead of 7:30 to help keep the bowtie point in the center of the grip to make sure it's flare safe. The aggressive full roller layouts are in the Wiki.


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 Post subject: Re: Full Roller Question
 Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:53 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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Thanks, I'll keep that in mind the next time I drill for a full roller. I don't have many full roller customers, but so far the 45* layout hasn't caused the track to flare into any gripping holes. Do you stick with 3 3/8" from grip center or adjust to change the flare? -- JohnP


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