When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

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2y2
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by 2y2 »

Nutations happen in every gyroscopic movement which is subject to externall forces, i'm wondering, could those nutations be happenning just at the time each rev. passes the bowtie?
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Triplicate »

MathIsTruth wrote: Several things could affect the rate and magnitude of nutation of this complex rotating system. Increased friction between ball and lane, increased rev rate of the ball and even core shape. This phenomena isn't going to be consistent or repeated in the sense that you have any control over it, it strictly follows the laws of physics. It is what it is.


Thanks for the reply on this question. This certainly aids in the understanding of these finite characteristics for those that care about such detail. I really enjoy getting deep into this kind of stuff so as to strengthen ones understanding.
MathIsTruth wrote:Request: If you have time, use Blueprint software to generate 2 pictures of axis migration, like you did earlier with your 9 pictures. This time use the same parameters for both scenarios except the initial rev rates, use 250 and 500. I am curious of the answer, I have no idea what it will be and I would appreciate your time. please and thank you...

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I'd love to but all the images I have collected were from my time with the trial. I don't have my own copy yet. I'm just as curious about this as your are. I suspect even moving on the lane to come out of the oil at different intervals will also be telling. When you view the graph example above (post #42) you'll see a big jump when the ball comes out of the patter at 40' in this case. That spot probably corresponds with the larger magnitude of nutation. Gee... I'm beginning to sound like a mathematician now. :lol: Thanks for the tid bit of additional education.
Last edited by Triplicate on June 27th, 2012, 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (2), 11 in a row (18)
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Triplicate »

2y2 wrote:Nutations happen in every gyroscopic movement which is subject to external forces, I'm wondering, could those nutations be happening just at the time each rev. passes the bowtie?
My suspicions are also that this would be the case. Yes. Notice also the graph in the previous post #42. You can see the magnitude of each rotation in the graph and they seem to correlate with the magnitude of every gyroscopic nutations shown on the migration path. I have not done a detailed study to come up with this but it is only based on a close visual comparison between the two which jumped out at me. :o

Does anyone else come away with this same feeling regarding the magnitude?
Last edited by Triplicate on June 26th, 2012, 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (2), 11 in a row (18)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
HOF induction - 2 (1 Local and 1 Provincial)
Is this helpful? Then Click the Image on the bottom right.
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by 2y2 »

Triplicate, that jump shows the distance at which the oil pattern ends, in absence of oil, the coefficient of friction changes and is obviously a lot greater.
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by russelldean »

My silmple observation from the first ball pictured. Axis migrates to thumbhole. I have always had great success with symmetrical balls that have pap migration through thumb. Since this is usually the location of mb of drilled ball, does this tell us anything? How would an assymmetrical ball roll with pap migrating to mb, or is it possible?
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Triplicate »

russelldean wrote:My simple observation from the first ball pictured. Axis migrates to thumbhole. I have always had great success with symmetrical balls that have pap migration through thumb. Since this is usually the location of mb of drilled ball, does this tell us anything? How would an asymmetrical ball roll with pap migrating to mb, or is it possible?
I think this only tells us you prefer lower pin position (below your fingers) layouts. The real control as to where the axis migrates is the RG contours. In the case of lower pin layouts the low RG contour (Blue/Green sometimes Yellow area) controls your axis migration path to go toward your thumb. This depends on how far away the pin is from your fingers in general. Even though the low and high RG contours always work together it all begins where your PAP is located with respect to the closest contour. In most cases for this scenario, the lower RG contour determines the migration path.

From previous posts I seem to recall that your a leftie. Correct me if I'm wrong. Please see below one of Jason Couches layouts for playing deep inside. Notice the axis migration path in his lower left quadrant.

I hope this helps!
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High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (2), 11 in a row (18)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
HOF induction - 2 (1 Local and 1 Provincial)
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by MathIsTruth »

2y2 wrote:Nutations happen in every gyroscopic movement which is subject to externall forces, i'm wondering, could those nutations be happenning just at the time each rev. passes the bowtie?
I do not believe this to be true. You make the process of nutation sound like individual events. I do believe friction causes a change in position of the angular momentum vector which forces gyroscopic nutation. But it is also friction which eventually dampens the nutation and stops the process. This can be seen in all the pictures in post 55. I believe too much credit is being given to the bowties here.



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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by MathIsTruth »

Triplicate wrote: My suspicions are also that this would be the case. Yes. Notice also the graph in the previous post #42. You can see the magnitude of each rotation in the graph and they seem to correlate with the magnitude of every gyroscopic nutations shown on the migration path. I have not done a detailed study to come up with this but it is only based on a close visual comparison between the two which jumped out at me. :o

Does anyone else come away with this same feeling regarding the magnitude?
We can not compare the graph of friction to the migration path on the ball and reach any conclusion. Gyroscopic nutation isnt a series of events.
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by MathIsTruth »

russelldean wrote:My silmple observation from the first ball pictured. Axis migrates to thumbhole. I have always had great success with symmetrical balls that have pap migration through thumb. Since this is usually the location of mb of drilled ball, does this tell us anything? How would an assymmetrical ball roll with pap migrating to mb, or is it possible?
The axis does not migrate to the thumbhole. It follows the RG contour. It just happens that the thumbhole is in the way. Follow the contours for the asymm balls on the various pics provided by blueprint software across the forum. PAP will not migrate to the MB on asymm ball.
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by elgavachon »

MathIsTruth wrote: The axis does not migrate to the thumbhole. It follows the RG contour. It just happens that the thumbhole is in the way. Follow the contours for the asymm balls on the various pics provided by blueprint software across the forum. PAP will not migrate to the MB on asymm ball.
here was another thread on this: see #50 & 52 for pictures
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=69&hilit=diet+dew&start=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by MathIsTruth »

elgavachon wrote: here was another thread on this: see #50 & 52 for pictures
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=69&hilit=diet+dew&start=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank you. I love both of those pictures. Thanks for the visual aid references!!
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by MathIsTruth »

MathIsTruth wrote: I do not believe this to be true. You make the process of nutation sound like individual events. I do believe friction causes a change in position of the angular momentum vector which forces gyroscopic nutation. But it is also friction which eventually dampens the nutation and stops the process. This can be seen in all the pictures in post 55. I believe too much credit is being given to the bowties here.



I've been thinking, the bowties obviously play a part in the total amount of friction so they have a part in the magnitude of the nutation but they aren't causing nutation. If anything, the bowties will hinder nutation.



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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by russelldean »

As usual. lots of great answers. I assumed the pap migration through thumb was just a reaction that suited me, but wondered if the ball might temporarily increase spin rate while stabalizing on the thumb before migrating beyond. Triplicate....i am right handed but have switched to my left due to injury. Don't curse at me any longer....lol
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Mo Pinel »

russelldean wrote:As usual. lots of great answers. I assumed the pap migration through thumb was just a reaction that suited me, but wondered if the ball might temporarily increase spin rate while stabalizing on the thumb before migrating beyond. Triplicate....i am right handed but have switched to my left due to injury. Don't curse at me any longer....lol
The migrating axis DOESN'T stabilize at all. It's just an optical illusion.
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by JohnP »

When the PAP flares across a hole it will appear to be stable from the time it enters the hole until it exits the hole, that might be three or more revolutions. In the same manner, say you mark your PAP with a 1" x 1" piece of white tape. The tape can appear stable when the PAP is at one edge of the tape and stay stable until the flare moves it through the other side of the tape. The size of the dot on the ball will decrease and then increase, but that's not apparent to the eye. -- JohnP
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by russelldean »

Understand...pap seems to temporarily stabilize on the thumbhole. Thanks for the clarification...
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Blueprint »

Interesting comments, everyone...I'm a little late to the discussion, but I'll give my two cents, if anyone cares:

The small loops seen in the axis migration trace in Blueprint do in fact show gyroscopic nutation. Blueprint performs a very detailed and very complex 3D rigid-body motion simulation of the ball going down the lane and I think this serves as strong evidence of that. The nutation generally starts in noticeable amounts when the friction level between the ball and the lane drastically increases at the end of the oil pattern. This near step-change in friction causes a corresponding increase in the frictional torque applied to the ball, which causes the nutation. If you're really interested in this topic and want to read more, do some searches for torque-free precession and torque-induced precession.

On a related and interesting (yet totally irrelevant) note, the Earth itself experiences nutation as it rotates. This causes the exact location of the poles, Tropical Circles, and Polar Circles to shift slightly over time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tr%C3 ... %2B800.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Someone previously asked if the nutation is caused by the ball rolling over the bowties and experiencing a momentary reduction in friction. The answer is that this is not what is causing the nutation.

From a practical standpoint, you really shouldn't care about nutation at all. You (as a bowler or as a ball driller) can't control it and, practically speaking, it doesn't have any significant impact on the ball's motion.
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Mo Pinel »

Blueprint wrote:Interesting comments, everyone...I'm a little late to the discussion, but I'll give my two cents, if anyone cares:

The small loops seen in the axis migration trace in Blueprint do in fact show gyroscopic nutation. Blueprint performs a very detailed and very complex 3D rigid-body motion simulation of the ball going down the lane and I think this serves as strong evidence of that. The nutation generally starts in noticeable amounts when the friction level between the ball and the lane drastically increases at the end of the oil pattern. This near step-change in friction causes a corresponding increase in the frictional torque applied to the ball, which causes the nutation. If you're really interested in this topic and want to read more, do some searches for torque-free precession and torque-induced precession.

On a related and interesting (yet totally irrelevant) note, the Earth itself experiences nutation as it rotates. This causes the exact location of the poles, Tropical Circles, and Polar Circles to shift slightly over time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tr%C3 ... %2B800.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Someone previously asked if the nutation is caused by the ball rolling over the bowties and experiencing a momentary reduction in friction. The answer is that this is not what is causing the nutation.

From a practical standpoint, you really shouldn't care about nutation at all. You (as a bowler or as a ball driller) can't control it and, practically speaking, it doesn't have any significant impact on the ball's motion.
Very well put! The jist of this post is, "Use the tools you have to affect the ball's motion and understand what is really going on, but don't dwell on what you can't control. Just deal with it."
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Triplicate »

MathIsTruth wrote:

Several things could affect the rate and magnitude of nutation of this complex rotating system. Increased friction between ball and lane, increased rev rate of the ball and even core shape. This phenomena isn't going to be consistent or repeated in the sense that you have any control over it, it strictly follows the laws of physics. It is what it is.

Request: If you have time, use Blueprint software to generate 2 pictures of axis migration, like you did earlier with your 9 pictures. This time use the same parameters for both scenarios except the initial rev rates, use 250 and 500. I am curious of the answer, I have no idea what it will be and I would appreciate your time. please and thank you...

I'm now a proud owner of BluePrint Software!

Your hunch was absolutely correct MIT... here are the two scenarios you requested. It seems that total flare and length of the axis migration path is VERY proportional to RPM. Enjoy!
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Last edited by Triplicate on July 10th, 2012, 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (2), 11 in a row (18)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
HOF induction - 2 (1 Local and 1 Provincial)
Is this helpful? Then Click the Image on the bottom right.
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by MathIsTruth »

Triplicate wrote:





I'm now a proud owner of BluePrint Software!

Your hunch was absolutely correct MIT... here are the two scenarios you requested. It seems that total flare is VERY proportional to RPM. Enjoy!




Thank you Triplicate!! And I was interested in the amount of gyroscopic nutation. My thoughts were confirmed. Thanks again..



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