When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

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When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Triplicate » June 19th, 2012, 6:34 pm

I can't help but think that flare is over rated. :o

I may be wrong but to me it seems that you reach a point where more flare does nothing and means nothing anymore with regards to ball motion.

My hypothesis is this. :idea: Once the oil ring is on a fresh part of the ball surface, you can not get any more friction from the ball than that. It does not matter, to any large extent, if your wet oil rings are (say 1/8" to 5/8" apart) your still on a fresh surface of the ball. So based on this, pushing the flare options to get more is a waste of time and effort.

Your either rolling on a fresh surface of the ball or your rolling on an oily surface of the ball. The ONLY zones your going to roll over your own oil is at the Bowtie areas. These overlapping areas quickly become insignificant based on the total amount of flare. Low flaring balls have a much greater influence on ball motion than do high flaring balls.

In all cases you have high friction surfaces on the ball that comes in contact with the lane surface while the remaining ball surfaces can be called low friction to zero friction areas.

When you take a look at the flare diagrams below your going to see oil lines that do not cross each other. These are what I call HIGH FRICTION surfaces. Where the oil rings become partially or directly on top of each other are your LOW to Zero friction ball surfaces.

Based on visual (non scientific) analysis you should quickly come to the realization that with most layouts your oil rings will come in contact with fresh clean ball surface 90% on the time. See images below. I've marked up some small areas to focus on where the zero frictions zones occur. In Figure 3 pay particular attention to the no friction area on the bowtie illustrations.

So with this in mind why do we think more flare is better. :?:

If you really want to make significant changes in ball motion adjust the surface of your ball because it's this 90% of ball surface that is influencing your ball motion the most.

This then is my simplistic view on ball flare. :roll: If there is much more to it than this, then here is where to get to differ. I'm all ears. (or should I say eyes :) )
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Blueprint » June 19th, 2012, 9:20 pm

Triplicate,

This is a topic that comes up occasionally with our customers. It usually starts with a question something like this: "I added a P4 hole to a ball in Blueprint and it didn't hook more...what am I doing wrong?"

When we get questions like this, I try to respond by explaining that extra track flare does not always translate into extra hook. If a ball's total flare is already 7", chances are pretty good that adding a balance hole that makes it flare 9" isn't going to make it hook noticeably more (all other things equal). However, if a ball is flaring 1", adding a balance hole that makes it flare 3" will almost certainly make it hook quite a bit more. The impact of track flare on ball reaction is indeed extremely non-linear.

I can remember Brunswick putting out a ThroBot video many years ago that demonstrated the diminishing impact of track flare on total hook as track flare goes above a certain threshold. I can't seem to find the video anymore online, but maybe someone else can chime in with a link.

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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Mo Pinel » June 19th, 2012, 9:45 pm

Triplicate wrote:I can't help but think that flare is over rated. :o

I may be wrong but to me it seems that you reach a point where more flare does nothing and means nothing anymore with regards to ball motion.

My hypothesis is this. :idea: Once the oil ring is on a fresh part of the ball surface, you can not get any more friction from the ball than that. It does not matter, to any large extent, if your wet oil rings are (say 1/8" to 5/8" apart) your still on a fresh surface of the ball. So based on this, pushing the flare options to get more is a waste of time and effort.

Your either rolling on a fresh surface of the ball or your rolling on an oily surface of the ball. The ONLY zones your going to roll over your own oil is at the Bowtie areas. These overlapping areas quickly become insignificant based on the total amount of flare. Low flaring balls have a much greater influence on ball motion than do high flaring balls.

In all cases you have high friction surfaces on the ball that comes in contact with the lane surface while the remaining ball surfaces can be called low friction to zero friction areas.

When you take a look at the flare diagrams below your going to see oil lines that do not cross each other. These are what I call HIGH FRICTION surfaces. Where the oil rings become partially or directly on top of each other are your LOW to Zero friction ball surfaces.

Based on visual (non scientific) analysis you should quickly come to the realization that with most layouts your oil rings will come in contact with fresh clean ball surface 90% on the time. See images below. I've marked up some small areas to focus on where the zero frictions zones occur.

So with this in mind why do we think more flare is better. :?:

If you really want to make significant changes in ball motion adjust the surface of your ball because it's this 90% of ball surface that is influencing your ball motion the most.

This then is my simplistic view on ball flare. :roll: If there is much more to it than this, then here is where to get to differ. I'm all ears. (or should I say eyes :) )
Flare is FRICTION! Too much is not good! Too little is not good! The right amount is PERFECT! No equations, or spreadsheets!

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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Triplicate » June 20th, 2012, 1:15 am

Blueprint wrote: If a ball's total flare is already 7", chances are pretty good that adding a balance hole that makes it flare 9" isn't going to make it hook noticeably more (all other things equal). However, if a ball is flaring 1", adding a balance hole that makes it flare 3" will almost certainly make it hook quite a bit more. The impact of track flare on ball reaction is indeed extremely non-linear.
Thanks Blueprint for confirming my suspicions. I think there are much larger differences in ball motion as you progress through various low flaring layouts (1/8th between oil rings) on out to medium layouts (1/4 thru 3/8"). However when you explore the differences between medium flaring layouts (say 3/8") on out to High flaring layouts (1/2" and up) the differences are not much different.
Blueprint wrote:I can remember Brunswick putting out a ThroBot video many years ago that demonstrated the diminishing impact of track flare on total hook as track flare goes above a certain threshold. I can't seem to find the video anymore online, but maybe someone else can chime in with a link.
Exactly... what is that "certain threshold"? I suspect it's in the neighborhood of 3/8" being ideal. If I can find the exact quote from Rick Benoit on this I'll update this post.

Thanks for the feedback. :!:
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Triplicate » June 20th, 2012, 1:24 am

Mo Pinel wrote:Flare is FRICTION! Too much is not good! Too little is not good! The right amount is PERFECT! No equations, or spreadsheets!
Precisely my point! Thanks Mo.
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by AJCZAR » June 20th, 2012, 1:37 am

From a personal standpoint, when you flare over the BOTTOM of the thumb and the weight hole, it's too much flare :D

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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Mo Pinel » June 20th, 2012, 1:39 am

Triplicate wrote: Thanks Blueprint for confirming my suspicions. I think there are much larger differences in ball motion as you progress through various low flaring layouts (1/8th between oil rings) on out to medium layouts (1/4 thru 3/8"). However when you explore the differences between medium flaring layouts (say 3/8") on out to High flaring layouts (1/2" and up) the differences are not much different.
Exactly... what is that "certain threshold"? I suspect it's in the neighborhood of 3/8" being ideal. If I can find the exact quote from Rick Benoit on this I'll update this post.

Thanks for the feedback. :!:
Stop using the distance between flare rings to measure flare! Try using the total distance that the precessing PAP moves in relation to the major and minor axis of the RG contour to accurately evaluate the amount of flare necessary for good ball motion. Now we're discussing reality, instead of just looking for things to talk about.

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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Triplicate » June 20th, 2012, 11:46 pm

Mo Pinel wrote:Stop using the distance between flare rings to measure flare! Try using the total distance that the precessing PAP moves in relation to the major and minor axis of the RG contour to accurately evaluate the amount of flare necessary for good ball motion. Now we're discussing reality, instead of just looking for things to talk about.
Your 100% right :!:

I didn't intend for this to get too technical. I just wanted to focus on flare distances (more or less, large vs small etc.) without getting into why and how they are created.

Please forgive me. :oops:

I hope this helps others just the same.
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Mo Pinel » June 21st, 2012, 2:09 am

Triplicate wrote: Your 100% right :!:

I didn't intend for this to get too technical. I just wanted to focus on flare distances (more or less, large vs small etc.) without getting into why and how they are created.

Please forgive me. :oops:

I hope this helps others just the same.
Discussion with direction is one of the main goals of these forums. Thanks!

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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Triplicate » June 21st, 2012, 4:10 am

Indeed! Thanks.

Having spent some quality time with BluePrint Software I quickly became aware and now have gained a high degree of understanding of many of the factors that contribute to total flare. It's precisely this accumulated knowledge that inspired this thread.

I believe that this discussion is complementary to the flare study already done by Blueprint.

Maybe that video will turn up that he was referring to. I seem to remember that as well but would like to see this again so it could be added to the wiki.

Does anyone remember this video?
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Mo Pinel » June 21st, 2012, 11:19 am

Flare management is mainly used to help determine the length on the lane of the first transition when it is used properly. That's about the jist of it.

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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by M4R10 » June 21st, 2012, 7:24 pm

Hi Triplicate

thanks for bringing this up! Since I recognized one of the pics you used I decided to pick up the topic and extend the documentation of my recent blueprint study with some more screen shots and information.

I did not revise the whole thing, just added an appendix with focus on the flare question at hand. So for all of you who are already familiar with the first part feel free to jump straight to page 13 of the PDF and only read the apendix.
BluePrintStudy - Layouts and Flare.pdf
Enjoy the read!
Mario
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Triplicate » June 22nd, 2012, 12:23 am

M4R10 wrote:Hi Triplicate

thanks for bringing this up! Since I recognized one of the pics you used I decided to pick up the topic and extend the documentation of my recent blueprint study with some more screen shots and information.

I did not revise the whole thing, just added an appendix with focus on the flare question at hand. So for all of you who are already familiar with the first part feel free to jump straight to page 13 of the PDF and only read the apendix.
BluePrintStudy - Layouts and Flare.pdf
Enjoy the read!
Mario
Nice work M4R10 and thanks for the kind words :!: There is so much to think about here that is yet to be discovered IMHO. It is becoming increasingly clearer that more is not better and that less can also be troublesome.

BTW... just going off topic for a brief moment... did you know that some how during the creation of the pdf file your periods are being converted to commas? Also your pdf file has no page numbers. Just an FYI.

One of the most respected individuals with regards to Ball Motion on tour is Rick Benoit. I have had the pleasure to meet was Rick on more than one occasion and with all his experience with touring players both male and female on and off the lanes he shared with me a very important factor about flares. He indicated to me to "try and keep your flare rings around 3/8". I was speed dominate at that time. He went into great detail as to why. He discussed in detail how to adjust my layouts with weight hole placement to decrease and increase flare for my equipment if need be so that I could get to 3/8 at the widest spot (obviously between bowtie locations). At this point surface management would be most effective and responsive to changes. He was absolutely correct.

Now this is not to say that using wider or much narrower spacing can not be beneficial in specific and rare situations.

This brings us to the point of this thread. I believe that there is an ideal spacing between oil rings that is best for a specific bowlers delivery specifications/style. I know what it is for me, thanks to Rick, but I'm still wondering what this is for others. Maybe it's the same for everyone or not. I have no idea but hopefully this will become common knowledge in the near future thanks to a giant leap forward in bowling software technologies resulting in either supporting or debunking the theories of the masters of observation.

All comments welcome. I hope this helps!
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by MegaMav » June 22nd, 2012, 3:00 am

Mo Pinel wrote: Stop using the distance between flare rings to measure flare! Try using the total distance that the precessing PAP moves in relation to the major and minor axis of the RG contour to accurately evaluate the amount of flare necessary for good ball motion. Now we're discussing reality, instead of just looking for things to talk about.
This ties things together neatly.
I just use Pin to PAP distance and VAL angles to control flare.
Pin to PAP distances to manage tilt situations.

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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by russelldean » June 22nd, 2012, 6:58 am

Any thoughts on how much rotation factors into total flare?
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by MegaMav » June 22nd, 2012, 1:32 pm

russelldean wrote:Any thoughts on how much rotation factors into total flare?
You can get full flare with 0 rotation.
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Mo Pinel » June 22nd, 2012, 2:47 pm

russelldean wrote:Any thoughts on how much rotation factors into total flare?
Axis rotation does have a small effect on flare. More axis rotation, which delays transitions, will SLIGHTLY decrease flare.

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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Mo Pinel » June 22nd, 2012, 3:35 pm

Triplicate wrote: Nice work M4R10 and thanks for the kind words :!: There is so much to think about here that is yet to be discovered IMHO. It is becoming increasingly clearer that more is not better and that less can also be troublesome.

BTW... just going off topic for a brief moment... did you know that some how during the creation of the pdf file your periods are being converted to commas? Also your pdf file has no page numbers. Just an FYI.

One of the most respected individuals with regards to Ball Motion on tour is Rick Benoit. I have had the pleasure to meet was Rick on more than one occasion and with all his experience with touring players both male and female on and off the lanes he shared with me a very important factor about flares. He indicated to me to "try and keep your flare rings around 3/8". I was speed dominate at that time. He went into great detail as to why. He discussed in detail how to adjust my layouts with weight hole placement to decrease and increase flare for my equipment if need be so that I could get to 3/8 at the widest spot (obviously between bowtie locations). At this point surface management would be most effective and responsive to changes. He was absolutely correct.

Now this is not to say that using wider or much narrower spacing can not be beneficial in specific and rare situations.

This brings us to the point of this thread. I believe that there is an ideal spacing between oil rings that is best for a specific bowlers delivery specifications/style. I know what it is for me, thanks to Rick, but I'm still wondering what this is for others. Maybe it's the same for everyone or not. I have no idea but hopefully this will become common knowledge in the near future thanks to a giant leap forward in bowling software technologies resulting in either supporting or debunking the theories of the masters of observation.

All comments welcome. I hope this helps!
Let's get down to it, once more! There is NO ideal spacing that works for a specific player. Stop chasing unicorns. The desired flare is totally dependent on the bowler, the lane condition, and the desired bowling ball in every situation. It's never going to be any simpler than that, no matter how inconvenient it is. I suggest you don't make generalities. In this case, try for a more global and abstract perspective, not a concrete and sequential approach, as you favor.

Just the perspective that I use!

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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by 2y2 » June 22nd, 2012, 5:13 pm

I remember the video BluePrint talks about, I cannot find it, but there's another one out there, made by Brunsnick, it is about balance hole placement but it does show the relation between flare and balance holes. Look at it, very interesting.

http://brunsnick.com/videos/xholedemo.wmv

When I see flare diagrams drawn with rect lines on plane, I always think it is not accurate because flare is rarely rect on the ball unless it comes from a full roller player and we're talking about spherical geometry. As Mo said flare is friction, then why more flare means more friction? If you can measure the distance of a flare ring you are measuring the contact length between the ball and the lane, more lenght is more friction. So for one player with two identical balls drilled in a way that one has large flare and the other has a small one, considering he trhows both balls and gives them the same amount of revolutions, the ball with more flare will have a longer contact lenght with the lane, because longitudinal lenght of the lane is constant, the ball with the greater flare has to move laterally more boards because of the greater contact length.

Flare is to a sphere similar to what a spiral is to a plane. So if you could extend flare into a straight line for both of the mentioned examples the length of the big flare is always greater.
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Re: When is Enough Flare ENOUGH?

Post by Mo Pinel » June 22nd, 2012, 5:21 pm

2y2 wrote:I remember the video BluePrint talks about, I cannot find it, but there's another one out there, made by Brunsnick, it is about balance hole placement but it does show the relation between flare and balance holes. Look at it, very interesting.

http://brunsnick.com/videos/xholedemo.wmv

When I see flare diagrams drawn with rect lines on plane, I always think it is not accurate because flare is rarely rect on the ball unless it comes from a full roller player and we're talking about spherical geometry. As Mo said flare is friction, then why more flare means more friction? If you can measure the distance of a flare ring you are measuring the contact length between the ball and the lane, more lenght is more friction. So for one player with two identical balls drilled in a way that one has large flare and the other has a small one, considering he trhows both balls and gives them the same amount of revolutions, the ball with more flare will have a longer contact lenght with the lane, because longitudinal lenght of the lane is constant, the ball with the greater flare has to move laterally more boards because of the greater contact length.

Flare is to a sphere similar to what a spiral is to a plane. So if you could extend flare into a straight line for both of the mentioned examples the length of the big flare is always greater.
Repeating: Try using the total distance that the precessing PAP moves in relation to the major and minor axis of the RG contour to accurately evaluate the amount of flare necessary for good ball motion. Now we're discussing reality, instead of just looking for things to talk about.

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