Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
Let's see if I'm reading the plots correctly. For the asymmetric balls, pin to PAP's, and VAL angles studied you get the maximum ratio of back end to in-oil flare in the 30* to 50* drilling angle range? -- JohnP
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
The first thing that popped into my head was surface. This single adjustment, along with alignment, I think will allow you to manipulate where on the lane the flare will occur also.JohnP wrote: Aha! Now, what can we manipulate to get more flare in the backend vs heads and mids, or more in the heads, or more in the mids? -- JohnP
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
Triplicate wrote: The first thing that popped into my head was surface. This single adjustment, along with alignment, I think will allow you to manipulate where on the lane the flare will occur also.
No sir! Surface changes will just increase, or decrease, the total amount of flare. 2 minutes in the penalty box!
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
Mo's layouts will still keep everything where it needs to be. Notice the higher angles on the stronger asymmetrical ball gave you the least flare. That would be the control layout. The lower drilling angles with larger val (for higher tilts) would put more flare in the oil (right where you want it). The weaker asymmetrical would have larger drill angles (Post-drilling) than on paper, which would explain the lower val angle resulting in medium flare for all M.B. locations. While the larger val angle would be more subject to change.
All of Mo's suggested layouts still apply. We just have more scientific evidence to back him.
Congratulations to Blueprint and Mo, and all those who have helped to give us this information.
All of Mo's suggested layouts still apply. We just have more scientific evidence to back him.
Congratulations to Blueprint and Mo, and all those who have helped to give us this information.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
My bad. Thanks for the clarification.Mo Pinel wrote:
No sir! Surface changes will just increase, or decrease, the total amount of flare. 2 minutes in the penalty box!
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
With the risk of going into the penalty box myself, can you explain why surface changes increase/decrease flare?Mo Pinel wrote: No sir! Surface changes will just increase, or decrease, the total amount of flare. 2 minutes in the penalty box!
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I would think that it would increase/decrease the friction on the lane, which would basically increase/decrease the effectiveness of the flare. Simply more or less friction per revolution.
I would guess also that more surface would increase the rate at which the ball slows down translationally (toward the head pin) ... does that make it rev up faster somehow? Or perhaps just increase the time on the lane?
I think I only deserve a two minute minor, not a game misconduct.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
My guess (and it is completely a guess) is more surface would increase flare some, as the ball would be seeing more friction overall, therefore the ball is slowing down sooner, giving the ball slightly more time on the lane. Less surface would do the opposite.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
Hypothetically speaking... What if you have a case where both balls (one with more surface than the other) rolls/hook out? The only difference is one rolled out sooner than the other. Which one has more flare? That is just one way to look at it.
An other way is.... Take the same ball and play deep in the oil on one shot and play the dryer area on the second shot. Which shot has more flare if they both completed the 3 phases.
Now think about two different speeds used. I don't think there is an easy answer to this question because it all depends.
I'm interested in Mo's response to you as well. Are we trying to stump the master here.
An other way is.... Take the same ball and play deep in the oil on one shot and play the dryer area on the second shot. Which shot has more flare if they both completed the 3 phases.
Now think about two different speeds used. I don't think there is an easy answer to this question because it all depends.
I'm interested in Mo's response to you as well. Are we trying to stump the master here.
High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (2), 11 in a row (18)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
HOF induction - 2 (1 Local and 1 Provincial)
Is this helpful? Then Click the on the bottom right.
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
HOF induction - 2 (1 Local and 1 Provincial)
Is this helpful? Then Click the on the bottom right.
Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
Triplicate wrote:Hypothetically speaking... What if you have a case where both balls (one with more surface than the other) rolls/hook out? The only difference is one rolled out sooner than the other. Which one has more flare? That is just one way to look at it.
An other way is.... Take the same ball and play deep in the oil on one shot and play the dryer area on the second shot. Which shot has more flare if they both completed the 3 phases.
Now think about two different speeds used. I don't think there is an easy answer to this question because it all depends.
I'm interested in Mo's response to you as well. Are we trying to stump the master here.
When a ball rolls out, it actually continues to flare. The amount of friction that the ball encounters affects flare minimally. So in the first two scenarios, the flare would be the same.
If you throw the ball faster, but keep everything else about your release the same, the ball will flare less. This is because the ball will have less total revolutions on it's way down the lane.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
dR3w wrote: With the risk of going into the penalty box myself, can you explain why surface changes increase/decrease flare?
I would think that it would increase/decrease the friction on the lane, which would basically increase/decrease the effectiveness of the flare. Simply more or less friction per revolution.
I would guess also that more surface would increase the rate at which the ball slows down translationally (toward the head pin) ... does that make it rev up faster somehow? Or perhaps just increase the time on the lane?
I think I only deserve a two minute minor, not a game misconduct.
No penalty minutes here. I hate the term "roll-out". A bowling ball stops hooking when it enters the roll phase (proven in the USBC Ball Motion Study). It also loses ALL of it's skid factor. Keeping everything else constant, a ball that enters the hook phase sooner will lose the skid factor sooner, therefore, increasing the total flare. Also, increasing the surface of the ball will cause the ball to slow down sooner, therefore, also increasing the total flare.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
As I looked back through this thread I realized that no one answered this question. I'm hoping someone will.JohnP wrote:Let's see if I'm reading the plots correctly. For the asymmetric balls, pin to PAP's, and VAL angles studied you get the maximum ratio of back end to in-oil flare in the 30* to 50* drilling angle range? -- JohnP
Also, if it hasn't already been done I'm going to add this topic to the Classic Forum Topics section in the wiki. -- JohnP
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
I believe that's accurate. There's graphs in the document what show it.JohnP wrote: As I looked back through this thread I realized that no one answered this question. I'm hoping someone will.
Also, if it hasn't already been done I'm going to add this topic to the Classic Forum Topics section in the wiki. -- JohnP
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
Thanks, Mo. Now, how important is this information to us as ball drillers, and how do we best use it?
This thread has been added to the Classic Forum Topics. -- JohnP
This thread has been added to the Classic Forum Topics. -- JohnP
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
I know this is an old topic, but I was just reading back through it and had one additional question.
The study shows that with larger drilling angles, asymmetric balls flare more like symmetric balls in terms of total flare for a given Pin to Pap distance. Does this hold true for the other characteristic in the flare charts (Longer Pin to Pap for later breakpoint, shorter for earlier breakpoint). Since all balls are asymmetric after drilling, it would seem that when the drilling angle is larger putting the PSA near the thumb hole, the only difference between an asymmetric and a symmetric ball after drilling would be the strength of the PSA.
The study shows that with larger drilling angles, asymmetric balls flare more like symmetric balls in terms of total flare for a given Pin to Pap distance. Does this hold true for the other characteristic in the flare charts (Longer Pin to Pap for later breakpoint, shorter for earlier breakpoint). Since all balls are asymmetric after drilling, it would seem that when the drilling angle is larger putting the PSA near the thumb hole, the only difference between an asymmetric and a symmetric ball after drilling would be the strength of the PSA.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
chucks0 wrote:I know this is an old topic, but I was just reading back through it and had one additional question.
The study shows that with larger drilling angles, asymmetric balls flare more like symmetric balls in terms of total flare for a given Pin to Pap distance. Does this hold true for the other characteristic in the flare charts (Longer Pin to Pap for later breakpoint, shorter for earlier breakpoint). Since all balls are asymmetric after drilling, it would seem that when the drilling angle is larger putting the PSA near the thumb hole, the only difference between an asymmetric and a symmetric ball after drilling would be the strength of the PSA.
It's about the degree of asymmetry of the different drilled balls. I've been able to verify these results in the real world. Just finished a study based on some of that data.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
I was studying the mass properties tables in the appendix and noticed a few discrepancies. I'm hoping Mo or Blueprint can clear this up, or someone can point out what I'm missing.
Study #1's constant is a 30* VAL angle. It then lists different pin-to-pap distances with two different drilling angles, 50* and 90*.
Study #2's constant is a 50* drilling angles. It then lists different VAL angles with two different pin-to-pap, 3 3/8" and 5 5/8".
The two studies overlap at 6 points, 2 for each ball studied. Each ball has the layout 50* x 3 3/8 x 30* and 50* x 5 5/8" x 30* listed in both Studies #1 and #2. At each occurrence of overlap, the information in the tables should be identical. At each occurrence of overlap, the information is different. Some of the differences are small, but one is .4" different (the 919C drilled 50* x 3 3/8 x 30* flared 5.1" in Study #1 and 5.5" in Study #2).
Study #1's constant is a 30* VAL angle. It then lists different pin-to-pap distances with two different drilling angles, 50* and 90*.
Study #2's constant is a 50* drilling angles. It then lists different VAL angles with two different pin-to-pap, 3 3/8" and 5 5/8".
The two studies overlap at 6 points, 2 for each ball studied. Each ball has the layout 50* x 3 3/8 x 30* and 50* x 5 5/8" x 30* listed in both Studies #1 and #2. At each occurrence of overlap, the information in the tables should be identical. At each occurrence of overlap, the information is different. Some of the differences are small, but one is .4" different (the 919C drilled 50* x 3 3/8 x 30* flared 5.1" in Study #1 and 5.5" in Study #2).
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
Make sure the ball discussed is the same on both charts. We used only EBI balls because it's the only CAD work he had. We used a weak asym. a strong asym, and a sym.Arkansas wrote:I was studying the mass properties tables in the appendix and noticed a few discrepancies. I'm hoping Mo or Blueprint can clear this up, or someone can point out what I'm missing.
Study #1's constant is a 30* VAL angle. It then lists different pin-to-pap distances with two different drilling angles, 50* and 90*.
Study #2's constant is a 50* drilling angles. It then lists different VAL angles with two different pin-to-pap, 3 3/8" and 5 5/8".
The two studies overlap at 6 points, 2 for each ball studied. Each ball has the layout 50* x 3 3/8 x 30* and 50* x 5 5/8" x 30* listed in both Studies #1 and #2. At each occurrence of overlap, the information in the tables should be identical. At each occurrence of overlap, the information is different. Some of the differences are small, but one is .4" different (the 919C drilled 50* x 3 3/8 x 30* flared 5.1" in Study #1 and 5.5" in Study #2).
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
The dynamics of the balls are the same in both tables, but the flare is different. I'm guessing it's an issue with the simulation. Possibly some variance built into the programming.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
I''ve noticed that my Tropical Breeze has well defined skid-hook-roll phases on light patterns, but no track flare to speak of. (PAP tape is stable all the way to the pin deck)
Is the Hook phase related to track flare?
Is the Hook phase related to track flare?
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study
I see what you are saying. Blueprint is a simulation and there is an area where you set up the skill level of the bowler. Perhaps the level was not set up or can not be set up ( don't remember) to throw the ball with the exact same release and speed specs every time. The difference in the numbers on the amount of flare is probably that variation. I know if you run a multi shot simulation, it will show the results for each shot and you can see the variations from all the shots.Arkansas wrote:The dynamics of the balls are the same in both tables, but the flare is different. I'm guessing it's an issue with the simulation. Possibly some variance built into the programming.
The RG numbers on the balls are the same so they are going to react the same for a given force
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