Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Blueprint »

russelldean wrote:Blueprint,
Any chance of plugging in the numbers for the short pin to pap? Is your system set up to do it without much time and effort? If not, totally understandable.
Unfortunately, there's not much chance of me getting to this any time soon. If I had more free time, I'd be glad to help, but time is pretty tight right now. To produce what was published in the original PDF was a big effort.

I did a few quick tests and nothing particularly interesting jumped out. Basically, the flare is pretty low no matter what the drilling angle is, with higher VAL angle layouts flaring a little bit less than low VAL angle layouts.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by russelldean »

Great...thanks for the reply blueprint. I really seem to like assymetricals with 1 1/2 to 2 inch pin to pap, with a very small drilling angle(15-25) and about a 45 val. obviously the mb is well beyond the val. Didn't know if this type of layout would bend the rules sort a speak. Thanks for all the great work you have done.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Mo Pinel »

You guys are all getting hung up on short pin to PAP distances. Please look at the charts at the end of the study. On page 11 are three charts for pin to PAP distances with different drilling angle and VAL angles. Just read the charts. It's all there.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Triplicate »

Mo and others.... please give this some thought and then reply.

What was the most impressive revaluation of this study for you?

For me it was the realization that strong asym cores will keep increasing flare with longer pin lengths. Figure 6 top left image of the study.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Mo Pinel »

Triplicate wrote:Mo and others.... please give this some thought and then reply.

What was the most impressive revaluation of this study for you?

For me it was the realization that strong asym cores will keep increasing flare with longer pin lengths. Figure 6 top left image of the study.
I've been showing this in the asym flare chart for a decade now. The study is just the documentation of that. The biggest value is that this confirms the importance of layouts to the resulting ball motion of all types of drilled balls. This offsets the premise that idiot ball drillers profess when they say "layouts don't matter". I apologize for being so blunt, but I've heard too much of that crap over the years.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Triplicate »

Mo Pinel wrote: I've been showing this in the asym flare chart for a decade now. The study is just the documentation of that. The biggest value is that this confirms the importance of layouts to the resulting ball motion of all types of drilled balls. This offsets the premise that idiot ball drillers profess when they say "layouts don't matter". I apologize for being so blunt, but I've heard too much of that crap over the years.
No apology necessary for being blunt. I feel you.

I liked the specifics of the study. Only the strong asyms kept progressively increasing while the weaker asyms did not.
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High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by russelldean »

I see the info on page 11, with short pin to pap.The drilling angles are 50 and 90 degrees. I was curious about the flare of smaller drilling angles and various val angles as the mb moves well beyond the val. I like the extremely short first transition, with a slow second transition, while being able to play straighter angles. Just thought it would be interesting to see how it effects total ball flare, in the same light as the medium and long pin graphs with all drilling angles.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by dR3w »

I don't know if I should have started a new thread, but I have a few questions relating to the results of this study if anyone would be kind enough to shed some light on the subject.

What I am most curious about, are the flare measurements, and what they mean, and how these results can even be possible.

1. First question, the measurements of flare in inches ... do they assume that the distances between flare lines is the same in the oil as in the dry. Meaning, does the separation between lines stay constant or do they grow or shrink?

2. Assuming that the flare line separation is constant, then the measurements of flare in inches would be proportional to the number of revs. Each Rev adds "x" amount of flare. Perhaps it is obvious to some, but I find it interesting that the flare in the dry can be higher, and sometime much higher than the flare in oil. I say this because the study states that it is using a 41 ft pattern. With loft at the line, the bowl will "approximately" spend twice as much time in the oil as in the dry. ( I do realize that the translational speed actually slows down as the ball moves down the lane.) To have more flare in the dry, then the average revs in the dry have to be approximately twice as much at that of the oil. I understand that balls rev up, but do they really more than double? Perhaps some of the measurement has to do with an increase in track diameter as the ball migrates down the lane, or the reduction in speed as it moves translationally down the lane. I assume that eventually the ball will typically roll at the pins, and that the initial track diameter will be smaller than the final track diameter.

3. What does the ratio of flare in the dry to flare in the oil actually tell us? Will a ball with more flare in the dry than in the oil typically move straighter through the front and more on the back than a ball with equal flare in dry and oil ... assuming same oil pattern, etc.

Thanks,

Drew
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by larim »

While I am way late on this topic, I commend the effort and say job well done. We need more stuff like this in bowling!!!!

Rory Holland
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former PBA Regional Laneman
former Research Engineer at USBC

The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Mo Pinel »

russelldean wrote:I see the info on page 11, with short pin to pap.The drilling angles are 50 and 90 degrees. I was curious about the flare of smaller drilling angles and various val angles as the mb moves well beyond the val. I like the extremely short first transition, with a slow second transition, while being able to play straighter angles. Just thought it would be interesting to see how it effects total ball flare, in the same light as the medium and long pin graphs with all drilling angles.
VAL angles are far less significant with shorter pin to PAP distances. Just play on a ball and you'll see.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Mo Pinel »

larim wrote:While I am way late on this topic, I commend the effort and say job well done. We need more stuff like this in bowling!!!!

Rory Holland
You, personally, know how much work this type of stuff takes. You've done it before. Thanks!
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by dR3w »

Anyone?
dR3w wrote:I don't know if I should have started a new thread, but I have a few questions relating to the results of this study if anyone would be kind enough to shed some light on the subject.

What I am most curious about, are the flare measurements, and what they mean, and how these results can even be possible.

1. First question, the measurements of flare in inches ... do they assume that the distances between flare lines is the same in the oil as in the dry. Meaning, does the separation between lines stay constant or do they grow or shrink?

2. Assuming that the flare line separation is constant, then the measurements of flare in inches would be proportional to the number of revs. Each Rev adds "x" amount of flare. Perhaps it is obvious to some, but I find it interesting that the flare in the dry can be higher, and sometime much higher than the flare in oil. I say this because the study states that it is using a 41 ft pattern. With loft at the line, the bowl will "approximately" spend twice as much time in the oil as in the dry. ( I do realize that the translational speed actually slows down as the ball moves down the lane.) To have more flare in the dry, then the average revs in the dry have to be approximately twice as much at that of the oil. I understand that balls rev up, but do they really more than double? Perhaps some of the measurement has to do with an increase in track diameter as the ball migrates down the lane, or the reduction in speed as it moves translationally down the lane. I assume that eventually the ball will typically roll at the pins, and that the initial track diameter will be smaller than the final track diameter.

3. What does the ratio of flare in the dry to flare in the oil actually tell us? Will a ball with more flare in the dry than in the oil typically move straighter through the front and more on the back than a ball with equal flare in dry and oil ... assuming same oil pattern, etc.

Thanks,

Drew
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Triplicate »

Hi Drew... I'll take a shot at your questions.
dR3w wrote:I don't know if I should have started a new thread, but I have a few questions relating to the results of this study if anyone would be kind enough to shed some light on the subject.

What I am most curious about, are the flare measurements, and what they mean, and how these results can even be possible.

1. First question, the measurements of flare in inches ... do they assume that the distances between flare lines is the same in the oil as in the dry. Meaning, does the separation between lines stay constant or do they grow or shrink?
Measurements are taken from the widest part of the flare ring, right midway between the two bowties. Sometimes the bowties are well defined in a small area while other times they are in a larger area of the ball, that is to say they don't cross at the same point. Generally they do keep the same spacing from wet to day but this too varies slightly from layout to layout. Also they increase in circumfrance with each rev until the ball is rolling end over end at their maximum circumferance.
dR3w wrote:2. Assuming that the flare line separation is constant, then the measurements of flare in inches would be proportional to the number of revs. Each Rev adds "x" amount of flare. Perhaps it is obvious to some, but I find it interesting that the flare in the dry can be higher, and sometime much higher than the flare in oil. I say this because the study states that it is using a 41 ft pattern. With loft at the line, the bowl will "approximately" spend twice as much time in the oil as in the dry. ( I do realize that the translational speed actually slows down as the ball moves down the lane.) To have more flare in the dry, then the average revs in the dry have to be approximately twice as much at that of the oil. I understand that balls rev up, but do they really more than double? Perhaps some of the measurement has to do with an increase in track diameter as the ball migrates down the lane, or the reduction in speed as it moves translationally down the lane. I assume that eventually the ball will typically roll at the pins, and that the initial track diameter will be smaller than the final track diameter.
Yes, you seem to have a grasp on what's going on. The final rpm of the ball down lane is realative to speed and friction, not initial rpm. Once the ball has cought up with the lane it's rpm is consistant with it's speed at that moment. So a guy with 275 rpm off their hand can have the same rpm when hitting the pocket as the guy releasing it at 450 rpm. Again is a factor of speed at impact.
dR3w wrote:3. What does the ratio of flare in the dry to flare in the oil actually tell us? Will a ball with more flare in the dry than in the oil typically move straighter through the front and more on the back than a ball with equal flare in dry and oil ... assuming same oil pattern, etc.

Thanks,

Drew
This is totally dependend on where on the lane your playing. Obviously if you in the oil longer, due to the way you line up, then your "opportunity" to get more oil on the ball increases. It's not the flare ratio that affects how much wet/dry rings you have, it the time in the oil vs the time in the dry areas. We have to keep this general because we have areas in between where some may argue it dry when its still wet or vise versa. You can have a ball that is designed to do something and that's good but it still comes down to "matching up" to the lane patter with the ball in your hand and watching ball motion to determine your next move, be it with your feet, target or ball change. Lane play and matching up is a vast subject to extensive for this discussion but I still hope you get my drift.

I hope this helps!
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Mo Pinel »

dR3w wrote:
3. What does the ratio of flare in the dry to flare in the oil actually tell us? Will a ball with more flare in the dry than in the oil typically move straighter through the front and more on the back than a ball with equal flare in dry and oil ... assuming same oil pattern, etc.

Thanks,

Drew

Mo responds:

The flare in the oil vs the flare in the dry tells you where the ball reads the lane. If there's more flare in the dry, the ball reads the back end of the lane more. If there's more flare in the oil, the ball reads the midlane more.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by JohnP »

Mo Pinel wrote:dR3w wrote:
3. What does the ratio of flare in the dry to flare in the oil actually tell us? Will a ball with more flare in the dry than in the oil typically move straighter through the front and more on the back than a ball with equal flare in dry and oil ... assuming same oil pattern, etc.

Thanks,

Drew

Mo responds:

The flare in the oil vs the flare in the dry tells you where the ball reads the lane. If there's more flare in the dry, the ball reads the back end of the lane more. If there's more flare in the oil, the ball reads the midlane more.
Aha! Now, what can we manipulate to get more flare in the backend vs heads and mids, or more in the heads, or more in the mids? -- JohnP
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Mo Pinel »

JohnP wrote: Aha! Now, what can we manipulate to get more flare in the backend vs heads and mids, or more in the heads, or more in the mids? -- JohnP

Simple! Mostly the angle ratios of the layouts.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by JohnP »

Mo Pinel wrote:
Simple! Mostly the angle ratios of the layouts.
OK, so what change in angle ratio makes what change in where the most flare is? -- JohnP
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

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JohnP wrote: OK, so what change in angle ratio makes what change in where the most flare is? -- JohnP

Think about it, JohnP. Larger angle ratios result is more dry flares compared to oil flares and visa versa.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Blueprint »

The attached plot shows another way of looking at flare in dry vs. flare in oil for the layouts shown in Study #3 of the track flare paper. Hopefully at least someone finds this interesting!

For asymmetrical balls, the relationship between flare in the dry vs. flare in the oil is non-monotonic...that is, for a given amount of flare in the dry, there are sometimes two amounts of flare in the oil that can be achieved, depending on what drilling angle you use.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by elgavachon »

Blueprint wrote:The attached plot shows another way of looking at flare in dry vs. flare in oil for the layouts shown in Study #3 of the track flare paper. Hopefully at least someone finds this interesting!

For asymmetrical balls, the relationship between flare in the dry vs. flare in the oil is non-monotonic...that is, for a given amount of flare in the dry, there are sometimes two amounts of flare in the oil that can be achieved, depending on what drilling angle you use.
Too bad all the "layouts don't matter drillers" aren't reading this. Mo figures all this out by trial and error while they are calling him a crackpot, and now a genius like Blueprint is backing him and we get a front row seat. I LOVE IT.
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