Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by elgavachon »

Mo Pinel wrote:
Let's pay attention and not just spout off. When I say to treat an asym with an int. diff. < .008" like a symmetrical ball, I'm referring to the location of the PSA of the drilled ball. All the exact info in Blueprint's article are specific to each of those balls. In his conclusions, he points out that that is the case. He makes some generalities in his conclusions. I stand by my statement to treat asyms with int. diffs. < .008" as symmetrical balls. I will continue to espouse that position. The amount of total diff. has nothing to do with this issue. We can have both asyms and syms with all kinds of diffs. Blueprint's article does nothing to contradict my position. Amen, brother!
I was amazed at Mo's accuracy as confirmed by this study. Did you check out the layout in the drill angle section. (Track 919C) edited for terminology.

90* 5 3/4 55*

And Mo mostly did it by trial and error and watching ball reactions I think. (In the beginning anyway)
Last edited by elgavachon on June 5th, 2012, 2:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by kellytehuna »

Mo Pinel wrote: When I say to treat an asym with an int. diff. < .008" like a symmetrical ball, I'm referring to the location of the PSA of the drilled ball.
This is the part where I may have misunderstood your position on low int diff asyms being treated as syms. I always interpreted that to mean PSA position was now irrelevant (as in the marked PSA) and the flare patterns would more closely model that of syms, therefore the pins should be chosen as if the ball were sym. A couple of conclusions I reached on my own. My apologies for any misunderstanding :)
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Triplicate »

Mo Pinel wrote:
It is amazing how much dancing is done without any music playing!
Triplicate, thanks for taking the time to clarify and re-examine some of the issues in your discussion. You are most definitely an asset to this site.
Thanks Mo!
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Bahshay »

I have a question about VAL angle.
Why do large VAL angles reduce flare and small VAL
angles increase flare? The answer, which was hinted at
above, is that different VAL angles cause the core to be
reshaped in different ways. We'll demonstrate with a
simple example. First consider the ball below, which is a
Track 919C drilled using a 50 x 5 ⅝ x 10 layout.
With this drilling, we see that all three of the gripping
holes remove material from the "side" of the core. The
effect of this is that the overall shape of the core is
altered so that it is less spherical (taller relative to its
width and height). This reshaping causes an increase in
total differential. Now, we will examine a pindown
layout with drilling parameters of 50 x 5 ⅝ x 50:
In this case, the finger holes hit the core directly on top
(through the pin, in fact). This, in effect, causes the
overall shape of the core to be altered such that it is
more spherical (not as tall relative to its width and
height), which causes the total differential to drop.
How large of an effect does the shape of the core (before drilling) have on this? The 919C appears to have a core that is taller than it is wide to start with. Would we see significant difference in the results if the core was wider than it is tall?
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by elgavachon »

You are getting into the total differentials with core shapes. The beginning shape of the core (also size and density) will have a very large effect on the outcome after drilling. This is why Blueprint has stated that these results are for this ball, with this bowler, with these specs, and this PAP, etc. Finger size, thumb size, pitches, hole depths, span lengths, etc. are all going to change the numbers.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Triplicate »

Bahshay wrote:I have a question about VAL angle.
How large of an effect does the shape of the core (before drilling) have on this? The 919C appears to have a core that is taller than it is wide to start with. Would we see significant difference in the results if the core was wider than it is tall?
I think the point being made here in the study focuses on removing denser (heavier) core material with the gripping holes. In Blueprint's study he illustrated that in one case the core was closer to the surface of the ball so when drilling gripping holes in this zone your remove more weight because the depth (say 1.5" could be more or less) penetrates deeper into the core material. In the other ball the finger holes (still 1.5" deep and the same diameter) did not reach the core thus less weight was removed even though you drilled identical holes (diameter and depth) in both cases into identical balls. This in general was the point being made.

Note that this is not just because of the VAL since the pin length plays an important part in positioning the core here to get the finger holes where the pin is.

I'm going to leave the thumb hole out of this as to not confuse this more than it may already be but of course the thumb hole going into the core has the same results of removing more or less weight in the thumb hole area. :)

So, translating this into your question would go something like this (assuming your pin is located where you will drill your finger holes).... the shape of the core and the gripping holes penetrating (more or less) deeper into the core makes a significant difference in the drilled balls mass properties after drilling. Exactly how much difference this will make can only be answered by modeling the ball in BluePrint software.

In general the "taller" core would be closer to the surface of the ball at the pin location. Drilling the finger holes there would remove more weight. The "wider" core would be further away from the surface at the pin location so when drilling finger holes there (at the normal 1.5" depth in both cases) you may or may not penetrate the core as deeply with the drill bit resulting with less weight removed from that location.

I hope this makes sense. Does this answer your question?
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Bahshay »

Triplicate wrote: I think the point being made here in the study focuses on removing denser (heavier) core material with the gripping holes. In Blueprint's study he illustrated that in one case the core was closer to the surface of the ball so when drilling gripping holes in this zone your remove more weight because the depth (say 1.5" could be more or less) penetrates deeper into the core material. In the other ball the finger holes (still 1.5" deep and the same diameter) did not reach the core thus less weight was removed even though you drilled identical holes (diameter and depth) in both cases into identical balls. This in general was the point being made.

Note that this is not just because of the VAL since the pin length plays an important part in positioning the core here to get the finger holes where the pin is.

I'm going to leave the thumb hole out of this as to not confuse this more than it may already be but of course the thumb hole going into the core has the same results of removing more or less weight in the thumb hole area. :)

So, translating this into your question would go something like this (assuming your pin is located where you will drill your finger holes).... the shape of the core and the gripping holes penetrating (more or less) deeper into the core makes a significant difference in the drilled balls mass properties after drilling. Exactly how much difference this will make can only be answered by modeling the ball in BluePrint software.

In general the "taller" core would be closer to the surface of the ball at the pin location. Drilling the finger holes there would remove more weight. The "wider" core would be further away from the surface at the pin location so when drilling finger holes there (at the normal 1.5" depth in both cases) you may or may not penetrate the core as deeply with the drill bit resulting with less weight removed from that location.

I hope this makes sense. Does this answer your question?
I think so. My question, or at least what I meant my question to be, was "if I used a ball that was wider than tall, could the results of the study be reversed (high VAL angles flaring equal or more than low"). If I am understanding right, I believe that the answer is yes? Please correct me if I'm reading this wrong, I'm slow at this stuff :D
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Triplicate »

Bahshay wrote:I think so. My question, or at least what I meant my question to be, was "if I used a ball that was wider than tall, could the results of the study be reversed (high VAL angles flaring equal or more than low"). If I am understanding right, I believe that the answer is yes? Please correct me if I'm reading this wrong, I'm slow at this stuff :D
I suspect your looking for a "rule of thumb" (no pun intended :lol:) and that's OK but it's not going to be that easy unfortunately. You can't determine flare alone by the shape (tall vs wide) of the core nor is the VAL alone going to dictate the amount of total flare.

Total flare is determined by many factors, all working together and influencing each other, so you have to reject the urge to focus on just the tall vs wide core shape or just the VAL angle.

Below is a quote from the study...

"SO, WHAT AFFECTS THE BALL'S TRACK FLARE?
There are several ways of answering this important question. On one level, we could say that pretty much everything can significantly affect a bowling ball's track flare. This paper explored four parameters: undrilled intermediate differential, drilling angle, pintoPAP distance, and VAL angle. The results presented above make it very clear that, in the general sense, track flare is affected by all four of these parameters. But, track flare is also affected by many other factors, including such things as hole depths and diameters, spans, pitches, balance hole parameters (location, depth, diameter, and pitches), core size, shape, and density, and undrilled total differential (although none of these factors were specifically addressed here)."

There is more info below this paragraph from the study that would be worth reading again.

I hope this helps.
Last edited by Triplicate on June 5th, 2012, 7:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by The Kid »

The Low RG Axis is always through the "long" dimension of the core (assuming that the entire core is the same density). This is because RG is a measure of how difficult it is to rotate a mass about an axis, and it is easier when the mass is closer than when it is further.

Think of a long pole. The Low RG Axis is through the ends, so it is easy to rotate the pole that way. The High RG Axes are through the middle lengthwise (i.e. spinning the pole like a helicopter blade). It is much more difficult to "spin" a pole from the middle than to "roll" the same pole.

So Bahshay, if the core were wider than it is tall, the Low RG Axis and the High RG Axis would be flipped. (Or, more accurately, you'd be looking at the ball sideways)

That is, unless I don't understand this properly, in which case Mo or Steve or someone will chime in.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by xclusix »

Amazing work, so the dual-angles system is not really effective for symm balls, since the drill angle does nothing to it? Then, what about the total sums, the ratios, etc?

This is really interesting !
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Triplicate »

xclusix wrote:Amazing work, so the dual-angles system is not really effective for symm balls, since the drill angle does nothing to it? Then, what about the total sums, the ratios, etc?

This is really interesting !
I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion :!:

You need to read this if you think it's not effective... Click the link below.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... lAngle.pdf
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by kellytehuna »

That's actually a common conclusion once people see that the drilling angle doesn't work quite the same on syms. However, the DA system is still effective for syms. The drilling angle on syms allows us to put the CG in favorable positions for balance holes we intend to use. More often than not, you will see us recommend a hole 2" down the VAL from mid line to help pull the PSA from the thumb hole toward the balance hole thus lowering the effective drilling angle getting us much closer to our intended drilling angle.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by xclusix »

I read that pdf and always learn something new, but, Since in symmetricsl cored balls, only the angle to the VAL affects the flare , and the drilling angle has no effect, does it really affects how soon the ball starts to roll without interfering on track flare?


Or is it only that it has a smaller effect than on asyms? Also, i can understand playing with that angle to put the Undrilled CG "kicked out" from the grip, but im trying to understand what real world difference i would see from a 10x4x40 and a 75x4x40....
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by MegaMav »

xclusix wrote:I read that pdf and always learn something new, but, Since in symmetricsl cored balls, only the angle to the VAL affects the flare , and the drilling angle has no effect, does it really affects how soon the ball starts to roll without interfering on track flare?


Or is it only that it has a smaller effect than on asyms? Also, i can understand playing with that angle to put the Undrilled CG "kicked out" from the grip, but im trying to understand what real world difference i would see from a 10x4x40 and a 75x4x40....
The FINAL drill angle is relevant in symmetrics.
You will only find the final drill angle with a determinator, or by an educated guess based on experience with a determinator and hole depths.

6 3/4" Pin thru CG is merely a reference line, not the true drill angle.
"The PSA on a drilled symmetrical ball without a balance hole falls 6 3/4" from the true low RG axis about 1/2 from the center of grip line"
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by xclusix »

MegaMav wrote: The FINAL drill angle is relevant in symmetrics.
You will only find the final drill angle with a determinator, or by an educated guess based on experience with a determinator and hole depths.

6 3/4" Pin thru CG is merely a reference line, not the true drill angle.
"The PSA on a drilled symmetrical ball without a balance hole falls 6 3/4" from the true low RG axis about 1/2 from the center of grip line"
I fail miserably to understand how it would affect and start to feel a little dumb :)...

According to Blueprint´s investigation, track flare is not affected by Drilling Angle on a symmetric ball, not even the final angle (with the drilled new PIN TO PSA line, and its different angle to the drill) ...

So in what manner its affecting the ball motion? if somene could provide specific link or quote it would be awesome...(please be kind, i have discovered this method/forum/technique this past month)
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by MegaMav »

Drill angle affects the length to the first transition.
I read your response as the drill angle having no effect on ball motion, which it definitely does, just not the hook zone.
Maybe you meant no effect on flare.
I would suspect it does not have any effect on flare, but how much the ball lopes down the lane.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

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xclusix wrote:I fail miserably to understand how it would affect and start to feel a little dumb :)...

According to Blueprint´s investigation, track flare is not affected by Drilling Angle on a symmetric ball, not even the final angle (with the drilled new PIN TO PSA line, and its different angle to the drill) ...

So in what manner its affecting the ball motion? if somene could provide specific link or quote it would be awesome...(please be kind, i have discovered this method/forum/technique this past month)
Not to worry xclusix... The study thus far indicates that the track flare is not affected by the Drilling Angle. This is indeed correct but with this one caveat. Let me provide an important quote out of the end of the study.

"FUTURE OPPORTUNITIES
While this paper hopefully answered some questions and cleared up some confusion on the topic of track flare and its effects, it certainly does not provide all the answers. Our scope was limited to the exploration of how core orientation and undrilled intermediate differential affect track flare. We have not yet addressed things like balance hole parameters, undrilled total differential, finger hole sizes and depths, and delivery specific parameters like PAP and rev rate. These topics will be saved for future studies.
"

So you are correct with regards to the current study BUT, based on the above closing remarks, we all know Blueprint intentionally has not got into the effect of gripping holes and balance holes at this time.

When the study moves into it's next phase you will quickly come to realize what most of us already know.... and that is the drilling angle plays an important roll in positioning the CG on symetrical balls so as to enable us to use a balance hole to control ball motion, static weights and mass properties to mention a few.

The bottom line here is that the drilling angle plays a very large part in the Dual Angle Layout System for both Symmetrical and Asymetric balls.

I hope this helps your understanding. If not fire away :!:
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

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Triplicate wrote: Not to worry xclusix... The study thus far indicates that the track flare is not affected by the Drilling Angle. This is indeed correct but with this one caveat. Let me provide an important quote out of the end of the study.

"FUTURE OPPORTUNITIES
While this paper hopefully answered some questions and cleared up some confusion on the topic of track flare and its effects, it certainly does not provide all the answers. Our scope was limited to the exploration of how core orientation and undrilled intermediate differential affect track flare. We have not yet addressed things like balance hole parameters, undrilled total differential, finger hole sizes and depths, and delivery specific parameters like PAP and rev rate. These topics will be saved for future studies.
"

So you are correct with regards to the current study BUT, based on the above closing remarks, we all know Blueprint intentionally has not got into the effect of gripping holes and balance holes at this time.

When the study moves into it's next phase you will quickly come to realize what most of us already know.... and that is the drilling angle plays an important roll in positioning the CG on symetrical balls so as to enable us to use a balance hole to control ball motion, static weights and mass properties to mention a few.

The bottom line here is that the drilling angle plays a very large part in the Dual Angle Layout System for both Symmetrical and Asymetric balls.

I hope this helps your understanding. If not fire away :!:
I assumed that blueprint software was already taking into account weight removed from the finger/thumb holes, (since somewhere in the paper it says about the core material being removed when using certain VAL angles on certain core shapes)...

So, assuming everything stays the same, finger hole placement WILL have an impact on ball motion, besides controling the lenght of skid/roll phase, as proved in the charts by Mo that specify that the depth of the finger holes can increase the total differential, its just that this software doesn´t take that into account?

Thanks for being so helpful! :)
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by Triplicate »

xclusix wrote:I assumed that blueprint software was already taking into account weight removed from the finger/thumb holes, (since somewhere in the paper it says about the core material being removed when using certain VAL angles on certain core shapes)...

So, assuming everything stays the same, finger hole placement WILL have an impact on ball motion, besides controling the lenght of skid/roll phase, as proved in the charts by Mo that specify that the depth of the finger holes can increase the total differential, its just that this software doesn´t take that into account?

Thanks for being so helpful! :)
That is the correct assumption that BluePrint does indeed take into account weight removal from finger and thumb holes.

This important note in the study points out that these layouts basically ignored static weights that ended up illegal as calculated by BluePrint Softwares determination of hole size, depth and locations.

The first portion of this quote clearly points out that static weights in some cases were found to be illegal, so clearly BluePrint takes weight removal into account.

The quote from the study...

"Finally, it should be noted that nothing in this paper should be considered as a ball drilling recommendation. There are several important reasons for making this disclaimer. First, a large number of the drilled balls shown in this paper do not satisfy the static weight limits of the USBC. Also, many of the drillings shown are not flare safe for all bowlers, meaning that the ball may flare over one or more gripping holes when thrown. Those familiar with the Dual Angle Layout Technique will likely notice that some of the drilling's in Study #2 (namely, the 10 degree and 90 degree VAL angle layouts) are not within the recommended guidelines of the system. Since these recommended guidelines are set primarily to ensure flare safeness for all bowlers, extreme caution should be used when going beyond the recommendations of the system. It is primarily for these reasons that we do not recommend the layouts shown in this paper be blindly used in the realworld. Instead, we recommend that bowlers work with their pro shop operators in determining the proper layouts for their games. A knowledgeable pro shop operator is the best source for input to make sure that the layouts selected will both be statically legal and flare safe for a particular bowler's style."

This should clear that point up :!: :) Would you agree?

The software is indeed very clever and well done and hopefully will improve over time.

I hope this helps.
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Re: Bowling Ball Track Flare Study

Post by xclusix »

I have been playing around with the software, i cant get any ball motion changes by changing the drill angle, BUT, i can make a layout legal or not just by playing with this angle.....

Is that what you are saying?
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