Grip Help for a smaller hand

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Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by RecLeaguePrez »

First time poster. I’d like to start off by thanking Mo, et al for this fantastic web site. Prior to finding this site I was close to giving up on this sport. Myself, getting close to the 50 mark, the induced pain and frustration from a grip that I could not get right was slowly driving me away. Since finding this site over the summer, researching the various WIKI material, reading the vast amount of support topics, and working with my pro shop on several progressive modifications to my grip I have a renewed sense of hope and optimism. Most all the pain has gone away, all the sores on my thumb have healed, the burn mark on the pad of my thumb is just about gone, my speed and RPMs are up and I am now able to stay behind the ball instead of coming around the side. Despite have old equipment that no longer matches my performance specs, nor particularly suited for the lane conditions I am on I have been able to raise my scoring substantially.

The problem, I am still muscling the ball as it often feels that it is slipping.

Some background: I have always struggled with the thumb fit. I’ve been to several pro shops over the years, between machine ovals and hand carved openings I have always had issues. After a multi year hiatus I went back to the pro shop this summer on a mission to get a solid fitted ball.

There have been a number of step by step changes that we have tried:

Lateral thumb pitch from 1/8 to 3/8 right – this relieved a lot of the blistering I’d get on one side of my thumb.

Beveled the top of the hole – no more blister/ callus at the base of the thumb.

Shortened span by 1/8” - seems my hand is rather flexible (even at my age) a fitting measurement after a rolled a game or two would indicate that my span should be longer than when my hand is cold – also I tended to stretch my fingers during fitting to show a longer grip. Now that I have a shorter grip the pain in the fingers and back of the hand has gone away.

Gone to a tiered hand carved oval thumb hole something akin the Slowinski T.O.P.S. thumb.

Have been using the magic carpet in lieu of fitting tape – I can get a snugger fit than using fitting tape. The hole is now so snug that it takes few seconds of work to get the thumb all the way in.

Have been using the Visa TA thumb tapes - provide a tackier grip than standard white tape.

The last change was to move the forward pitch by an additional 1/8 to the current 3/16 - if I go around the side of the ball (bad decades long habits are hard to permanently break) it will hang but when I release properly I need a fair bit of wrist cupping to keep it from slipping.

Here are my current specs :
speed: 16.5-17 at arrows (video calc)
RPM: 250 (video calc)
tilt: 15 (picture with overlay)
rotation: 55 (picture with overlay)
15lbs

current fit:

MF span 4 1/16” 1/8” forward (finger flex 80)
RF span 4 1/8” 1/16” reverse (finger flex 60 )
shortened span both fingers.jpg
MF shortened grip.jpg
RF shortened grip.jpg
thumb 3/8” right lateral 3/16 forward
Cylinder grip.jpg
thumb flexibility : somewhere between 120 – 135
regular length (2”)
did not see any WIKI modifier for thumb size - smallish diameter (equiv to a 7/8” round hole)
dry skin

My current thought is to further increase the forward of the thumb hole – but the trial and error is starting to feel a bit… as well getting a bit pricy with all the plugs and re-drills. Any ideas on how to solve the slippage issue?

Thanks,
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by MegaMav »

I love HADA patch for feel and consistent texture and release speed. With a good fit these taped are key for me. I use #3 Aqua. Welcome to BowlingChat.net.
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by Mo Pinel »

RecLeaguePrez wrote:First time poster. I’d like to start off by thanking Mo, et al for this fantastic web site. Prior to finding this site I was close to giving up on this sport. Myself, getting close to the 50 mark, the induced pain and frustration from a grip that I could not get right was slowly driving me away. Since finding this site over the summer, researching the various WIKI material, reading the vast amount of support topics, and working with my pro shop on several progressive modifications to my grip I have a renewed sense of hope and optimism. Most all the pain has gone away, all the sores on my thumb have healed, the burn mark on the pad of my thumb is just about gone, my speed and RPMs are up and I am now able to stay behind the ball instead of coming around the side. Despite have old equipment that no longer matches my performance specs, nor particularly suited for the lane conditions I am on I have been able to raise my scoring substantially.

The problem, I am still muscling the ball as it often feels that it is slipping.

Some background: I have always struggled with the thumb fit. I’ve been to several pro shops over the years, between machine ovals and hand carved openings I have always had issues. After a multi year hiatus I went back to the pro shop this summer on a mission to get a solid fitted ball.

There have been a number of step by step changes that we have tried:

Lateral thumb pitch from 1/8 to 3/8 right – this relieved a lot of the blistering I’d get on one side of my thumb.

Beveled the top of the hole – no more blister/ callus at the base of the thumb.

Shortened span by 1/8” - seems my hand is rather flexible (even at my age) a fitting measurement after a rolled a game or two would indicate that my span should be longer than when my hand is cold – also I tended to stretch my fingers during fitting to show a longer grip. Now that I have a shorter grip the pain in the fingers and back of the hand has gone away.

Gone to a tiered hand carved oval thumb hole something akin the Slowinski T.O.P.S. thumb.

Have been using the magic carpet in lieu of fitting tape – I can get a snugger fit than using fitting tape. The hole is now so snug that it takes few seconds of work to get the thumb all the way in.

Have been using the Visa TA thumb tapes - provide a tackier grip than standard white tape.

The last change was to move the forward pitch by an additional 1/8 to the current 3/16 - if I go around the side of the ball (bad decades long habits are hard to permanently break) it will hang but when I release properly I need a fair bit of wrist cupping to keep it from slipping.

Here are my current specs :
speed: 16.5-17 at arrows (video calc)
RPM: 250 (video calc)
tilt: 15 (picture with overlay)
rotation: 55 (picture with overlay)
15lbs

current fit:

MF span 4 1/16” 1/8” forward (finger flex 80)
RF span 4 1/8” 1/16” reverse (finger flex 60 )
shortened span both fingers.jpg
MF shortened grip.jpg
RF shortened grip.jpg
thumb 3/8” right lateral 3/16 forward
Cylinder grip.jpg
thumb flexibility : somewhere between 120 – 135
regular length (2”)
did not see any WIKI modifier for thumb size - smallish diameter (equiv to a 7/8” round hole)
dry skin

My current thought is to further increase the forward of the thumb hole – but the trial and error is starting to feel a bit… as well getting a bit pricy with all the plugs and re-drills. Any ideas on how to solve the slippage issue?

Thanks,

Go to the Wiki and tell me what "fan" line works with your hand laying on the ball. Your thumb lateral pitch should be 1/8" right by the picture you posted. Do those spans represent half way between the joints with your wrist support on? Are your posted spans FULL spans? With that info I'll finish the fit, so you won't have to do any more guessing.
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by RecLeaguePrez »

Those Hada patches are great. I've been using them (mostly the #4 - grey) for a couple of years. I have a talked a fair number of bowlers on my league into using them as well - maybe I can get a kickback from Vise :D
Now that I am using the Magic Carpet my thumb doesn't swell/shrink as much but when it does a second layer of Hada adjusts the snugness easier than adding tape to the front of the hole for me.
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by RecLeaguePrez »

The Fan line from the WIKI that is closest is "A" (the exact angle is about 10). My RF lateral is a little further right of the recommended 1/2 due to an injury that resulted in a bit of a crocked finger.

The thumb started out the standard 1/8" right but we moved it further as an experiment to relieve the blistering on one side. Since then no more blistering and it feels a little more secure.

I posted full spans. Wrist support - what wrist support ?? actually I do own one. A few years ago I had some coaching from Del Warren in a seminar and he had me get rid of it (amongst many other changes). I've used it a few times in practice sessions to try to "un-train" a few bad habits. But normally I don't use it.
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by Mo Pinel »

RecLeaguePrez wrote:The Fan line from the WIKI that is closest is "A" (the exact angle is about 10). My RF lateral is a little further right of the recommended 1/2 due to an injury that resulted in a bit of a crocked finger.

The thumb started out the standard 1/8" right but we moved it further as an experiment to relieve the blistering on one side. Since then no more blistering and it feels a little more secure.

I posted full spans. Wrist support - what wrist support ?? actually I do own one. A few years ago I had some coaching from Del Warren in a seminar and he had me get rid of it (amongst many other changes). I've used it a few times in practice sessions to try to "un-train" a few bad habits. But normally I don't use it.
Thanks for the clarification 1/8" right will work, if the top of the thumb hole is shaped properly to take the pressure off the tapered top of your bone structure in your thumb. Can't find your finger lateral pitches. What are they?
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by RecLeaguePrez »

Makes sense about the 1/8" right. I dug out an old ball that still had the 1/8" on it. After some beveling , sanding and taping to mimic my current hole profile I tried it and it did feel better aligned.

Current fingers laterals are:
MF 5/16 left (probably was in compensation for the thumb being too far to the right - in hindsight )

RF 7/16 right (my earlier comment about the injury had I typo - it should have stated left of 1/2)
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by Mo Pinel »

RecLeaguePrez wrote:Makes sense about the 1/8" right. I dug out an old ball that still had the 1/8" on it. After some beveling , sanding and taping to mimic my current hole profile I tried it and it did feel better aligned.

Current fingers laterals are:
MF 5/16 left (probably was in compensation for the thumb being too far to the right - in hindsight )

RF 7/16 right (my earlier comment about the injury had I typo - it should have stated left of 1/2)

Here is the grip, I'd like you to try:

MF pitch: 3/8" forward by 3/8" left
RF Pitch: 3/16" forward by 5/8" right

MF span: 4 1/16" Full
RF span: 4 1/8" Full

Thumb pitch: 1/8" right by 1/4" forward

Make sure you shape the top of the thumb hole properly.
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by RecLeaguePrez »

Mo,
thanks so much for your help and support on this!!

I'll go get a ball setup with these new #s and I'll get back to you with the results.

Thanks once again
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by RecLeaguePrez »

I want to thank you once again, my hand and fingers want to thank you (it is hard to imagine how much more comfortable and less pain there is now from where I started before I found this site), and my team mates want to thank you (even with equipment that is not quite right for either the lanes nor my new stats – my scores are up dramatically).

Update:
I was a bit concerned about of how much additional forward you suggested for the fingers so I started out with just punching up my spare ball to start. When I first tried this grip change it was mostly OK - the thumb was better but still slipped occasionally. So I played around with adding additional tape in various spots so that I could have a new thumb mold for the next ball.
I had a strike ball drilled with the new grip and the new thumb mold. I spent some time sanding back some of the additional thickness and I now have a hole this is about as close to fitting all areas of my thumb as it can get (it could only get closer if we made a negative mold impression of my actual thumb).

We changed from lift inserts to oval (following your suggestions you gave several others). Somewhere there was a mistake made and the new ball ended up with a bit more forward in the thumb than intended – came out at 5/16”. I Decided to try it as is.
I am finding that with the new thumb mold and the new grip (which is at 5/16” forward on the thumb) that it is almost there. It never hangs – sometimes still releases a bit early. As long as I setup with my palm facing forward and never let it face inward during the backswing (see viewtopic.php?p=38324#p38324) I don’t have any slipping at the bottom of the apex on the swing.

I’ve paid more attention to the pressure in the finger nails and I perceive there still to be no pressure on the nail side of the middle finger. The ring finger feels to be balanced between front and nail side.

My speed is much better. Have a little bit more RPM (haven’t measured yet). Haven’t done a camera analysis yet but based upon oil track it looks like my tilt is raised more than I might have wanted {22* - 25*).

So my question now is do we consider this (with the 5/16” forward in the thumb) my final grip or do we try some additional changes?
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by LabRat »

There should be a modifier for thumb size - for any given span, the angle of the front of the thumbhole becomes less acute as the hole size decreases. If you take 1" as 'standard' then you need to increase the forward pitch by 1/16" for every 1/8" decrease in thumb size.

If everything else is correct, and you are not hanging up in the ball, you don't have too much forward pitch. It;s amazing what you can get out of with a relaxed grip - I have 5/16" forward on 4 1/2 & 4 5/8" spans without being particularly flexible. That is unusual, but it works for me.
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by Mo Pinel »

RecLeaguePrez wrote:I want to thank you once again, my hand and fingers want to thank you (it is hard to imagine how much more comfortable and less pain there is now from where I started before I found this site), and my team mates want to thank you (even with equipment that is not quite right for either the lanes nor my new stats – my scores are up dramatically).

Update:
I was a bit concerned about of how much additional forward you suggested for the fingers so I started out with just punching up my spare ball to start. When I first tried this grip change it was mostly OK - the thumb was better but still slipped occasionally. So I played around with adding additional tape in various spots so that I could have a new thumb mold for the next ball.
I had a strike ball drilled with the new grip and the new thumb mold. I spent some time sanding back some of the additional thickness and I now have a hole this is about as close to fitting all areas of my thumb as it can get (it could only get closer if we made a negative mold impression of my actual thumb).

We changed from lift inserts to oval (following your suggestions you gave several others). Somewhere there was a mistake made and the new ball ended up with a bit more forward in the thumb than intended – came out at 5/16”. I Decided to try it as is.
I am finding that with the new thumb mold and the new grip (which is at 5/16” forward on the thumb) that it is almost there. It never hangs – sometimes still releases a bit early. As long as I setup with my palm facing forward and never let it face inward during the backswing (see viewtopic.php?p=38324#p38324) I don’t have any slipping at the bottom of the apex on the swing.

I’ve paid more attention to the pressure in the finger nails and I perceive there still to be no pressure on the nail side of the middle finger. The ring finger feels to be balanced between front and nail side.

My speed is much better. Have a little bit more RPM (haven’t measured yet). Haven’t done a camera analysis yet but based upon oil track it looks like my tilt is raised more than I might have wanted {22* - 25*).

So my question now is do we consider this (with the 5/16” forward in the thumb) my final grip or do we try some additional changes?
Only time will tell.
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by Mo Pinel »

LabRat wrote:There should be a modifier for thumb size - for any given span, the angle of the front of the thumbhole becomes less acute as the hole size decreases. If you take 1" as 'standard' then you need to increase the forward pitch by 1/16" for every 1/8" decrease in thumb size.

If everything else is correct, and you are not hanging up in the ball, you don't have too much forward pitch. It;s amazing what you can get out of with a relaxed grip - I have 5/16" forward on 4 1/2 & 4 5/8" spans without being particularly flexible. That is unusual, but it works for me.
The industry has always worked off the pitch of the center of the drill bit, which becomes the pitch of the centerline of the hole. The small variations creates by the size of the thumb hole are virtually insignificant.
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by LabRat »

Mo Pinel wrote: The industry has always worked off the pitch of the center of the drill bit, which becomes the pitch of the centerline of the hole. The small variations creates by the size of the thumb hole are virtually insignificant.
It is the angle at the front of the hole that determines how fast the ball releases - the long axis of the thumb is parallel to the front of the hole. I'll draw it up later but if you drill a 1" thumbhole at 0 pitch and put a 1/2" bit into it, you have to tip the 1/2" bit forward to hit the top front of the hole. To keep the same angle of the thumb into the ball you have to add 1/4" forward - now the 1/2" bit will sit against and parallel to the front of the hole.
For small thumbs it's a significant difference. Draw it up and check it for yourself. If I think something the rest of the industry does is incorrect, I don't do it. ;)
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by Mo Pinel »

LabRat wrote: It is the angle at the front of the hole that determines how fast the ball releases - the long axis of the thumb is parallel to the front of the hole. I'll draw it up later but if you drill a 1" thumbhole at 0 pitch and put a 1/2" bit into it, you have to tip the 1/2" bit forward to hit the top front of the hole. To keep the same angle of the thumb into the ball you have to add 1/4" forward - now the 1/2" bit will sit against and parallel to the front of the hole.
For small thumbs it's a significant difference. Draw it up and check it for yourself. If I think something the rest of the industry does is incorrect, I don't do it. ;)

A vast majority of thumbs are between 13/16" and 1 1/32". Since you are OCD like me, would you please calculate the two different angles at the front edge of the hole created by a 13/16" thumb hole and a 1 1/32" thumb hole with 0 centerline pitch. Let's see what you get. Thanks.
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by LabRat »

If my math is correct:
13/16 =84.5*
1 1/32 = 83.0*

1 1/32 with 3/16 (edit 3/32, not 3/16) reverse - 84.3*

It's really not a difficult adjustment to make. 1/16 per 1/8 thumb size above or below 1".
And you're probably right about the OCD. :)
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by RecLeaguePrez »

Sound like a reasonable experiment to try out. As my front to back diameter of the thumb hole is 3/4” this would give me 1/8 additional forward (from Mo’s original grip spec). I should be able to report back sometime this weekend how it fairs.
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by MathIsTruth »

LabRat wrote:If my math is correct:

1 1/32 with 3/16 (edit 3/32, not 3/16) reverse - 84.3*
13/16 =84.5* 1 1/32 = 83.0*
These are the angles that I calculated as well. I calculated the pitch required for the 1 1/32" hole to have an 84.5* angle at .1125", which is slightly off from your 3/32". If my calculations are correct.
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by LabRat »

I think they are - I can't remember why I checked 3/32 pitch (which was a slightly different angle anyway). It was late!
7/64 should give the same angle as the 13/16 at 0. Difference is probably rounding errors from approaching it from opposite unknowns (pitch -> angle vs angle -> pitch.)
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Re: Grip Help for a smaller hand

Post by Mo Pinel »


Thanks guys for the research. We now get to the word "significant". There are subtle differences in using different thumb hole sizes. Since fitting is an art and it's always been intended that some future adjustments may be needed to make the grip the best it can be. These subtle differences are insignificant. The standard usage of the centerline pitch of the thumb hole is valid. So I'll continue to use and teach that system.


FITTING IS AN ART!!!!!
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