Span and ball reaction

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890bowler
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Span and ball reaction

Post by 890bowler » December 10th, 2016, 4:43 pm

Hi everyone I am new on here have questions about fit and reaction I was once one of the top bowlers in Texas but last say 8-10 years my reaction has changed most strong balls burn up I just read mo performance fit and I remember about time I started bowling with no carry I had new ball driller he gave me new fit but 5/8 reverse in both fingers and 3/8 lateral in both fingers my tilt is almost 0 my track has always been high my ball speed is slow my axis rotation also changed more up back if I don't have very heavy oil I can't beat anyone and if we have oil when they open up I can't carry could this be because of my span change thanks

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Dustin
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Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by Dustin » December 10th, 2016, 5:27 pm

Welcome!
Spans that are to long with to large of thumb holes and to much reverse pitch have seemed to be a problem all around the bowling community which can lead to low tilt. Have you checked the fitting method out in the Wiki?
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... itting.pdf
* MPH @ aarows
* RPM
AR *
AT *
PAP 3 3/4"
(* rebuilding)

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson

890bowler
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Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by 890bowler » December 10th, 2016, 8:30 pm

Span not too long it's relaxed wonder if the reverse pitch in fingers and lateral pitch in fingers would cause this my span is 4 1/4 -4 3/8

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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by EricHartwell » December 10th, 2016, 8:42 pm

890bowler wrote:Hi everyone I am new on here have questions about fit and reaction I was once one of the top bowlers in Texas but last say 8-10 years my reaction has changed most strong balls burn up I just read mo performance fit and I remember about time I started bowling with no carry I had new ball driller he gave me new fit but 5/8 reverse in both fingers and 3/8 lateral in both fingers my tilt is almost 0 my track has always been high my ball speed is slow my axis rotation also changed more up back if I don't have very heavy oil I can't beat anyone and if we have oil when they open up I can't carry could this be because of my span change thanks
Welcome to BowlingChat.
The game has changed alot in the lat 8-10 years. Sounds like your game has changed as well. I wish I could throw a ball like I did 10 years ago. I can't.

Your issues are slower ball speed and less rotation. This change in your delivery is enough to make the ball read earlier and achieve roll sooner or burn up as you call it. Also the cover strengths today are much stronger than 10 years ago. Another possible reason.

What balls are you rolling?

Are you still using your favorite layouts of 10 years ago?

Utilizing the dual angle method can tune your layouts to match up better.
Check out this link for help with layouts...

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not disregarding your span questions, just saying that there are more possible reasons for the decline in your game.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by 890bowler » December 10th, 2016, 9:57 pm

Thanks I do still use same layout my bowling balls tend to be on weaker side I bowled 890 with ti messenger in 2001 seems now days you need more bowling balls then before I can always hit the pocket 90 percent of time but no carry my rev rate is 300-350 ball speed 15 off hand and tilt 0-10 axis rotation about 25-30

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EricHartwell
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Posts: 3643
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by EricHartwell » December 11th, 2016, 2:49 am

What are you rolling today?
What is your PAP measurement?
And can you describe the layouts?

With your rev dominance and low tilt I would look into what I refer to as a THS low flare layout for an Asymmetrical ball. This is a shorter pin to PAP layout to retain tilt and rotation, delaying the roll. It has been described as continuous in its motion.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

890bowler
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Joined: December 10th, 2016, 4:27 pm
Preferred Company: Lane masters

Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by 890bowler » December 11th, 2016, 4:01 am

My pap is 5 1/8 up 1/8 I use pin above fingers which is 5 inches away from my pap I tend to like symmetrical balls not much luck with asymmetric balls but never tried pin that close to pap I am willing to try anything !!!!! Thanks

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EricHartwell
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Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by EricHartwell » December 11th, 2016, 4:40 am

When it comes to pin to PAP distances Symmetrical and Asymmetrical act much differently, somewhat opposite in nature. Long pin to PAP with Asyms produce a shorter hook zone and earlier forward roll. You can counter act that effect to a point with a larger VAL angle, pin below the fingers. A larger VAL angle is a longer, slower hook coupled with the long Pin to PAP make this type of layout more usable.

With the release specs you have provided I could estimate layouts.
For me to be as accurate as possible you need to confirm your tilt. A range of 0-10* can make a big difference in what I would consider usable layouts.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

890bowler
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Joined: December 10th, 2016, 4:27 pm
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Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by 890bowler » December 11th, 2016, 2:58 pm

Tilt is closer to 5

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EricHartwell
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Posts: 3643
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by EricHartwell » December 11th, 2016, 7:24 pm

5* tilt
25*rotation
15 mph
325 rpm

Rev dominant with low tilt and rotation
Benchmark 120* Total, Ratio 3:1
Asymmetrical Benchmark...........90-3-30
Symmetrical Benchmark ...........(95)-4.5-25

Your release specs put you in an area of extremes when it comes to layouts. 95* drilling angle for a Sym is actually not achievable. Measuring to the thumb on Symmetrical the Benchmark ends up with a 70* drilling angle, not ideal for your release. It lends itself towards what would be considered a totally strong layout for you.

Reduced flare pin positions are going to be utilized as you already know with your favorite 5" pin to PAP for Symmetricals.
Reduced flare for Asyms mean shorter pin to PAPs.

The Asymmetrical Benchmark 90-3-30 is for a Strong reaction on a THS.
For a ball down from the benchmark I recommend the Asymmetrical low flare layout 90-2.25-30.

I have other ideas for symmetrical drillings that we could discuss if you end up drilling a Symmetrical ball.

The systematic way of matching up is to start with the Benchmark and utilize the dual angle method to adjust the reactions of other balls to be drilled based on the benchmark's performance.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

890bowler
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Posts: 11
Joined: December 10th, 2016, 4:27 pm
Preferred Company: Lane masters

Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by 890bowler » December 11th, 2016, 7:58 pm

Thanks very much I am going to try that thanks will it work if I plug a ball or better on new ball thanks very much for your help

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EricHartwell
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Posts: 3643
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by EricHartwell » December 11th, 2016, 8:13 pm

What do you have to plug and redrill?
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

890bowler
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Posts: 11
Joined: December 10th, 2016, 4:27 pm
Preferred Company: Lane masters

Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by 890bowler » December 11th, 2016, 8:53 pm

I have two storm iq pearl I have storm Croix I have storm iq tour I have hyper cell skid

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EricHartwell
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Posts: 3643
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by EricHartwell » December 11th, 2016, 9:24 pm

If you have a ball or balls that you dislike because of layout it is a perfect chance to make usable by trying something different, experiementing if you will.

Of the Crux or the Hypercell, plug and redrill the one you like the least. If you dislike both plug and redrill both of them.
Crux ............ low flare 90-2.25-30
Hypercell .....benchmark 90-3-30
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

890bowler
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Posts: 11
Joined: December 10th, 2016, 4:27 pm
Preferred Company: Lane masters

Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by 890bowler » December 12th, 2016, 1:04 am

Thanks I will plug both I will let you know thanks very much for your help

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Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by 890bowler » December 12th, 2016, 6:29 pm

I have two lane masters balls they are symmetrical after I 're plug the other and try we can try the lane masters

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EricHartwell
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Posts: 3643
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by EricHartwell » December 12th, 2016, 10:11 pm

I would need to know more about the Lane Masters, what model, pin to Cg distance and top weight.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

890bowler
Member
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: December 10th, 2016, 4:27 pm
Preferred Company: Lane masters

Re: Span and ball reaction

Post by 890bowler » December 15th, 2016, 2:49 am

Balls is yeah baby and black coal pearl sorry for late reply would it be better to change my game a little I was playing around opening my shoulder it gave me better reaction more closer to 45 degrees axis rotation

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