converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
And, Mo, WE DO APPRECIATE IT!!!  JohnP

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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
[quote]And, Mo, WE DO APPRECIATE IT!!!  JohnP/quote]
!!!! DITTO !!!!
!!!! DITTO !!!!
KyBOB
________________________________
STATS:
LH
PAP = 4"< x 1"^
Speed = 1819 off hand
Rev Rate = 250275
AR = 45*50*
AT = 23*
________________________________
STATS:
LH
PAP = 4"< x 1"^
Speed = 1819 off hand
Rev Rate = 250275
AR = 45*50*
AT = 23*

 Trusted Source
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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
I don't know how you do it Mo. Some people don't pay any attention to the time of day (and night) that you are here.
 MarkM
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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
I'm not sure if I just got blasted or if that was a friendly comment? (I sent DCG here) Let me assure you, I APPRECIATE your hard work on the wiki and I completely understand doing something for free. Hell, I had a product for 3 years that helped bowlers and gave it away free. I was merely requesting an answer to the original poster's question. Sorry, but this isn't the first forum where I have seen the "Just lay it out on the ball" answer. A true formula would help many bowlers and it just surprised me nobody has come up with this after years of Morich releasing the dual layout specs.I believe that almost everyone, but you, understands that. It's my choice and my pleasure.
Kelly and Labrat will help out a lot of people as well as pro shop owners with their formulas. I never considered you the "answer man" and I was merely asking for other members to help this guy out since like I said, this isn't the first time I have heard this question. If you have the knowledge, spread it. If not, no worries, someone else can also contribute.
Having said that, thank you for all your work you do on here, I am sure everyone, including myself, appreciates it... Now can we just get back to being pissed at bowling? lol
Mo Pinel wrote:As Kelly said "It's all math and Spherical Trigonometry."
Let me answer to DCGoD is simple. I prefer helping people into the latest in technology. I'll guide people to locate the answers in the Wiki, which has taken a long time to develop and is the best technical resource for bowling on the net. I will help as much as I can, but I'm not just the "answer man". I already love spending an unimaginable amount of time supporting bowlingchat without any pay. I believe that almost everyone, but you, understands that. It's my choice and my pleasure.
Mark McCorkle
Lead Designer / Developer
2012 Software LLC / BowlSheet (iOS Bowling Game Management)
Mark.McCorkle@2012Software.com
http://www.2012Software.com
http://www.BowlSheet.com
Lead Designer / Developer
2012 Software LLC / BowlSheet (iOS Bowling Game Management)
Mark.McCorkle@2012Software.com
http://www.2012Software.com
http://www.BowlSheet.com
Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
I apologize if any offense was taken in my post Mo. I have heard nothing but great things from this forum. I have been looking for a formula for this and I can say I am a "trig man". I also appreciate your hard work on the wiki. I'm sure it had helped thousands.
Sorry To get you involved Mark. I know my post sounded a little aggravated.
Sorry To get you involved Mark. I know my post sounded a little aggravated.
Mo Pinel wrote:As Kelly said "It's all math and Spherical Trigonometry."
Let me answer to DCGoD is simple. I prefer helping people into the latest in technology. I'll guide people to locate the answers in the Wiki, which has taken a long time to develop and is the best technical resource for bowling on the net. I will help as much as I can, but I'm not just the "answer man". I already love spending an unimaginable amount of time supporting bowlingchat without any pay. I believe that almost everyone, but you, understands that. It's my choice and my pleasure.
 MarkM
 Member
 Posts: 12
 Joined: March 16th, 2012, 4:13 pm
 THS Average: 208
 Preferred Company: Ebonite
 Location: Orlando, FL
 Contact:
Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
No worries man! And yes, it did sound a little on the harsh side but I can see where your frustrations come from. Sorry if I handed you the incorrect formula but I did say that was just the general idea and not a full blown formula since it didn't even consider spherical values. Mainly just a ballpark. Hopefully those formulas the others posted will get you on track! Bowl well!
DCGoD wrote:I apologize if any offense was taken in my post Mo. I have heard nothing but great things from this forum. I have been looking for a formula for this and I can say I am a "trig man". I also appreciate your hard work on the wiki. I'm sure it had helped thousands.
Sorry To get you involved Mark. I know my post sounded a little aggravated.
Mark McCorkle
Lead Designer / Developer
2012 Software LLC / BowlSheet (iOS Bowling Game Management)
Mark.McCorkle@2012Software.com
http://www.2012Software.com
http://www.BowlSheet.com
Lead Designer / Developer
2012 Software LLC / BowlSheet (iOS Bowling Game Management)
Mark.McCorkle@2012Software.com
http://www.2012Software.com
http://www.BowlSheet.com
 Mo Pinel
 Trusted Source
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 Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
 Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
All is well! Just a result of writing everything down. Once it's in print, it IS forever!DCGoD wrote:I apologize if any offense was taken in my post Mo. I have heard nothing but great things from this forum. I have been looking for a formula for this and I can say I am a "trig man". I also appreciate your hard work on the wiki. I'm sure it had helped thousands.
Sorry To get you involved Mark. I know my post sounded a little aggravated.
 kellytehuna
 Senior Member
 Posts: 2891
 Joined: January 18th, 2010, 11:11 pm
 THS Average: 195
 Positive Axis Point: 3.75", 1" up
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 Medium Oil Ball: Morich Perpetual Motion
 Light Oil Ball: Morich Mojave
 Preferred Company: Morich
 Location: Hazard, KY
Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
Here are the raw formulae. I've decided I'm going to rewrite the whole suite of tools I have and re post them when they're done. BE WARNED! A LOT OF MATH FOLLOWS! LOL!
To find the PSA to PAP distance:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = Drilling angle in degrees
PSA to PAP = arccos[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * cos(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arccos is the inverse cos operation)
You should round up or down to the nearest 1/8", whichever you feel is best.
To find the Pin Buffer:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = VAL angle in degrees
Pin Buffer = arcsin[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * sin(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arcsin is the inverse sin operation)
Again, round up or down to the nearest 1/8".
To find the PSA to PAP distance:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = Drilling angle in degrees
PSA to PAP = arccos[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * cos(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arccos is the inverse cos operation)
You should round up or down to the nearest 1/8", whichever you feel is best.
To find the Pin Buffer:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = VAL angle in degrees
Pin Buffer = arcsin[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * sin(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arcsin is the inverse sin operation)
Again, round up or down to the nearest 1/8".
Father, Husband, Bowler, Web developer
15lb Morich DestroyR, Mania, Perpetual Motion, Craze, Frenzy, Mojave
15lb Radical Yeti
15lb Brunswick Slingshot, Avalanche Urethane
Highest score: 279
Highest series: 818
15lb Morich DestroyR, Mania, Perpetual Motion, Craze, Frenzy, Mojave
15lb Radical Yeti
15lb Brunswick Slingshot, Avalanche Urethane
Highest score: 279
Highest series: 818
 Mo Pinel
 Trusted Source
 Posts: 10054
 Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
 Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
WOW! I think I underestimated you. My apologies! Please PM MathIsTruth about this one. He'll love it, and verify.kellytehuna wrote:Here are the raw formulae. I've decided I'm going to rewrite the whole suite of tools I have and re post them when they're done. BE WARNED! A LOT OF MATH FOLLOWS! LOL!
To find the PSA to PAP distance:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = Drilling angle in degrees
PSA to PAP = arccos[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * cos(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arccos is the inverse cos operation)
You should round up or down to the nearest 1/8", whichever you feel is best.
To find the Pin Buffer:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = VAL angle in degrees
Pin Buffer = arcsin[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * sin(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arcsin is the inverse sin operation)
Again, round up or down to the nearest 1/8".
 kellytehuna
 Senior Member
 Posts: 2891
 Joined: January 18th, 2010, 11:11 pm
 THS Average: 195
 Positive Axis Point: 3.75", 1" up
 Speed: 18
 Rev Rate: 480
 Axis Tilt: 17
 Axis Rotation: 40
 Heavy Oil Ball: Morich DestroyR
 Medium Oil Ball: Morich Perpetual Motion
 Light Oil Ball: Morich Mojave
 Preferred Company: Morich
 Location: Hazard, KY
Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
I never told you calculus was my favorite subject at high school? There is a reason I ended up in Computer Science and not Industrial Chemistry
Father, Husband, Bowler, Web developer
15lb Morich DestroyR, Mania, Perpetual Motion, Craze, Frenzy, Mojave
15lb Radical Yeti
15lb Brunswick Slingshot, Avalanche Urethane
Highest score: 279
Highest series: 818
15lb Morich DestroyR, Mania, Perpetual Motion, Craze, Frenzy, Mojave
15lb Radical Yeti
15lb Brunswick Slingshot, Avalanche Urethane
Highest score: 279
Highest series: 818
 kellytehuna
 Senior Member
 Posts: 2891
 Joined: January 18th, 2010, 11:11 pm
 THS Average: 195
 Positive Axis Point: 3.75", 1" up
 Speed: 18
 Rev Rate: 480
 Axis Tilt: 17
 Axis Rotation: 40
 Heavy Oil Ball: Morich DestroyR
 Medium Oil Ball: Morich Perpetual Motion
 Light Oil Ball: Morich Mojave
 Preferred Company: Morich
 Location: Hazard, KY
Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
kellytehuna wrote:Here are the raw formulae. I've decided I'm going to rewrite the whole suite of tools I have and re post them when they're done. BE WARNED! A LOT OF MATH FOLLOWS! LOL!
To find the PSA to PAP distance:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = Drilling angle in degrees
PSA to PAP = arccos[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * cos(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arccos is the inverse cos operation)
You should round up or down to the nearest 1/8", whichever you feel is best.
To find the Pin Buffer:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = VAL angle in degrees
Pin Buffer = arcsin[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * sin(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arcsin is the inverse sin operation)
Again, round up or down to the nearest 1/8".
One note to be made: All angles are ultimately expressed in radians, since it's simpler to find the arc lengths from radians than it is to do so in degrees! So, make sure your calculators are in radians mode when you evaluate the trignometric functions.
Father, Husband, Bowler, Web developer
15lb Morich DestroyR, Mania, Perpetual Motion, Craze, Frenzy, Mojave
15lb Radical Yeti
15lb Brunswick Slingshot, Avalanche Urethane
Highest score: 279
Highest series: 818
15lb Morich DestroyR, Mania, Perpetual Motion, Craze, Frenzy, Mojave
15lb Radical Yeti
15lb Brunswick Slingshot, Avalanche Urethane
Highest score: 279
Highest series: 818
Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
Perfect! Thank you thank you!

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 Light Oil Ball: Mojave 70/4.25/47
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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
Nice work Kelly!
If you're solving using the google search engine, use the following syntax (for it to be recognized by the google calculator)
Formula 1:
you can copy and paste into google and then replace a with pin to pap and b with drilling angle to get psa to pap distance
arccos (sin(a* pi / 13.5) * cos(b * pi / 180)) * 13.5 / pi
Formula 2:
you can copy and paste into google and then replace a with pin to pap and b with val angle to get pin buffer
arcsin (sin (a * pi/ 13.5) * sin(b * pi/ 180)) * 13.5 / pi
If you're solving using the google search engine, use the following syntax (for it to be recognized by the google calculator)
Formula 1:
you can copy and paste into google and then replace a with pin to pap and b with drilling angle to get psa to pap distance
arccos (sin(a* pi / 13.5) * cos(b * pi / 180)) * 13.5 / pi
Formula 2:
you can copy and paste into google and then replace a with pin to pap and b with val angle to get pin buffer
arcsin (sin (a * pi/ 13.5) * sin(b * pi/ 180)) * 13.5 / pi
Last edited by jpj6780 on March 19th, 2012, 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 Mo Pinel
 Trusted Source
 Posts: 10054
 Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
 Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
These guys are good!jpj6780 wrote:Nice work Kelly!
If you're solving using the google search engine, use the following syntax (for it to be recognized by the google calculator)
Formula 1:
you can copy and paste into google and then replace a with pin to pap and b with drilling angle to get psa to pap distance
arccos (sin(a* pi / 13.5) * cos(b * pi / 180)) * 13.5 / pi
Formula 2:
you can copy and paste into google and then replace a with pin to pap and b with val angle to get pin buffer
arcsin (sin (a * pi/ 13.5) * sin(b * pi/ 180)) * 13.5 / pi
 MathIsTruth
 Member
 Posts: 543
 Joined: January 19th, 2010, 5:18 pm
 Preferred Company: MoRich
 Location: Washington, WV
Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
Excellent work te huna. I enjoyed working through this. And just to be sure everyone is aware, the pin buffer distance is measured from the Pin to the VAL on a perpendicular line. Again thanks for the fun spherical trig, but then again, is there any other kind of spherical trig.kellytehuna wrote:Here are the raw formulae. I've decided I'm going to rewrite the whole suite of tools I have and re post them when they're done. BE WARNED! A LOT OF MATH FOLLOWS! LOL!
To find the PSA to PAP distance:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = Drilling angle in degrees
PSA to PAP = arccos[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * cos(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arccos is the inverse cos operation)
You should round up or down to the nearest 1/8", whichever you feel is best.
To find the Pin Buffer:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = VAL angle in degrees
Pin Buffer = arcsin[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * sin(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arcsin is the inverse sin operation)
Again, round up or down to the nearest 1/8".

 Member
 Posts: 470
 Joined: November 23rd, 2011, 5:56 am
 Positive Axis Point: 5" x 7/8"
 Speed: 15.7 MPH Off Hand
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 Axis Rotation: 65
 Preferred Company: Hammer, Ebonite and MoRich
Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
Just wow! Great Job Kelly!MathIsTruth wrote: Excellent work te huna. I enjoyed working through this. And just to be sure everyone is aware, the pin buffer distance is measured from the Pin to the VAL on a perpendicular line. Again thanks for the fun spherical trig, but then again, is there any other kind of spherical trig.
LHB
PAP 5" over LEFT x 7/8" over UP
Tilt 18*
Speed 16 MPH (Off Hand)
Rev 250 RPM
Rot 65*
PAP 5" over LEFT x 7/8" over UP
Tilt 18*
Speed 16 MPH (Off Hand)
Rev 250 RPM
Rot 65*
Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
Great topic guys, and i have a question. What if we have the old system and want to convert it to Dual Angles ? Do we have a similar conversion formula like the one posted previously ? Or alternatively, could someone explain how to we read the conversion table on the Dual Angles sheet? I am not sure i am reading it right (a am not a driller).
Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
Go the Wiki here:TheJesus wrote:Great topic guys, and i have a question. What if we have the old system and want to convert it to Dual Angles ? Do we have a similar conversion formula like the one posted previously ? .
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... nformation
and go down to the Pin Buffer to Dual Angle Converter it's a Spreadsheet to convert pin buffer layouts to dual angles and vice versa.
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."
Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
@bowl1820 Thank you ! rep button pressed !! I will go check it out right away !