Author 
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JohnP

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:21 am Post Number: #21 

Joined: January 30, 2010 Posts: 3387 Location: Hawesville KY/Tell City INReputation:
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And, Mo, WE DO APPRECIATE IT!!!  JohnP





KYBOB

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:34 am Post Number: #22 

Joined: January 25, 2010 Posts: 96 Location: Nicholasville, KYReputation:
7
Reputation Power: 1

[quote]And, Mo, WE DO APPRECIATE IT!!!  JohnP/quote]
!!!! DITTO !!!!
_________________ KyBOB ________________________________
STATS:
LH PAP = 4"< x 1"^ Speed = 1819 off hand Rev Rate = 250275 AR = 45*50* AT = 23*





elgavachon

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:11 pm Post Number: #23 

Joined: January 18, 2010 Posts: 3128Reputation:
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Reputation Power: 5

I don't know how you do it Mo. Some people don't pay any attention to the time of day (and night) that you are here.





MarkM

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:51 pm Post Number: #24 

Joined: March 16, 2012 Posts: 12 Location: Orlando, FLReputation:
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Quote: I believe that almost everyone, but you, understands that. It's my choice and my pleasure. I'm not sure if I just got blasted or if that was a friendly comment? (I sent DCG here) Let me assure you, I APPRECIATE your hard work on the wiki and I completely understand doing something for free. Hell, I had a product for 3 years that helped bowlers and gave it away free. I was merely requesting an answer to the original poster's question. Sorry, but this isn't the first forum where I have seen the "Just lay it out on the ball" answer. A true formula would help many bowlers and it just surprised me nobody has come up with this after years of Morich releasing the dual layout specs. Kelly and Labrat will help out a lot of people as well as pro shop owners with their formulas. I never considered you the "answer man" and I was merely asking for other members to help this guy out since like I said, this isn't the first time I have heard this question. If you have the knowledge, spread it. If not, no worries, someone else can also contribute. Having said that, thank you for all your work you do on here, I am sure everyone, including myself, appreciates it... Now can we just get back to being pissed at bowling? lol Mo Pinel wrote: As Kelly said "It's all math and Spherical Trigonometry."
Let me answer to DCGoD is simple. I prefer helping people into the latest in technology. I'll guide people to locate the answers in the Wiki, which has taken a long time to develop and is the best technical resource for bowling on the net. I will help as much as I can, but I'm not just the "answer man". I already love spending an unimaginable amount of time supporting bowlingchat without any pay. I believe that almost everyone, but you, understands that. It's my choice and my pleasure.
_________________ Mark McCorkle Lead Designer / Developer 2012 Software LLC / BowlSheet (iOS Bowling Game Management) Mark.McCorkle@2012Software.comhttp://www.2012Software.com http://www.BowlSheet.com





DCGoD

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:23 pm Post Number: #25 

Joined: March 16, 2012 Posts: 3Reputation:
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I apologize if any offense was taken in my post Mo. I have heard nothing but great things from this forum. I have been looking for a formula for this and I can say I am a "trig man". I also appreciate your hard work on the wiki. I'm sure it had helped thousands. Sorry To get you involved Mark. I know my post sounded a little aggravated. Mo Pinel wrote: As Kelly said "It's all math and Spherical Trigonometry."
Let me answer to DCGoD is simple. I prefer helping people into the latest in technology. I'll guide people to locate the answers in the Wiki, which has taken a long time to develop and is the best technical resource for bowling on the net. I will help as much as I can, but I'm not just the "answer man". I already love spending an unimaginable amount of time supporting bowlingchat without any pay. I believe that almost everyone, but you, understands that. It's my choice and my pleasure.





MarkM

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:40 pm Post Number: #26 

Joined: March 16, 2012 Posts: 12 Location: Orlando, FLReputation:
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No worries man! And yes, it did sound a little on the harsh side but I can see where your frustrations come from. Sorry if I handed you the incorrect formula but I did say that was just the general idea and not a full blown formula since it didn't even consider spherical values. Mainly just a ballpark. Hopefully those formulas the others posted will get you on track! Bowl well! DCGoD wrote: I apologize if any offense was taken in my post Mo. I have heard nothing but great things from this forum. I have been looking for a formula for this and I can say I am a "trig man". I also appreciate your hard work on the wiki. I'm sure it had helped thousands. Sorry To get you involved Mark. I know my post sounded a little aggravated. Mo Pinel wrote: As Kelly said "It's all math and Spherical Trigonometry."
Let me answer to DCGoD is simple. I prefer helping people into the latest in technology. I'll guide people to locate the answers in the Wiki, which has taken a long time to develop and is the best technical resource for bowling on the net. I will help as much as I can, but I'm not just the "answer man". I already love spending an unimaginable amount of time supporting bowlingchat without any pay. I believe that almost everyone, but you, understands that. It's my choice and my pleasure.
_________________ Mark McCorkle Lead Designer / Developer 2012 Software LLC / BowlSheet (iOS Bowling Game Management) Mark.McCorkle@2012Software.comhttp://www.2012Software.com http://www.BowlSheet.com





Mo Pinel

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:41 pm Post Number: #27 

Joined: January 26, 2010 Posts: 10054Reputation:
642
Reputation Power: 7

DCGoD wrote: I apologize if any offense was taken in my post Mo. I have heard nothing but great things from this forum. I have been looking for a formula for this and I can say I am a "trig man". I also appreciate your hard work on the wiki. I'm sure it had helped thousands. Sorry To get you involved Mark. I know my post sounded a little aggravated. Mo Pinel wrote: As Kelly said "It's all math and Spherical Trigonometry."
Let me answer to DCGoD is simple. I prefer helping people into the latest in technology. I'll guide people to locate the answers in the Wiki, which has taken a long time to develop and is the best technical resource for bowling on the net. I will help as much as I can, but I'm not just the "answer man". I already love spending an unimaginable amount of time supporting bowlingchat without any pay. I believe that almost everyone, but you, understands that. It's my choice and my pleasure. All is well! Just a result of writing everything down. Once it's in print, it IS forever!





kellytehuna

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:41 pm Post Number: #28 

Joined: January 18, 2010 Posts: 2891 Location: Hazard, KYReputation:
271
Reputation Power: 3

Here are the raw formulae. I've decided I'm going to rewrite the whole suite of tools I have and re post them when they're done. BE WARNED! A LOT OF MATH FOLLOWS! LOL!
To find the PSA to PAP distance: a = Pin to PAP distance in inches b = Drilling angle in degrees
PSA to PAP = arccos[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * cos(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arccos is the inverse cos operation)
You should round up or down to the nearest 1/8", whichever you feel is best.
To find the Pin Buffer: a = Pin to PAP distance in inches b = VAL angle in degrees
Pin Buffer = arcsin[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * sin(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arcsin is the inverse sin operation)
Again, round up or down to the nearest 1/8".
_________________ Father, Husband, Bowler, Web developer
15lb Morich DestroyR, Mania, Perpetual Motion, Craze, Frenzy, Mojave 15lb Radical Yeti 15lb Brunswick Slingshot, Avalanche Urethane
Highest score: 279 Highest series: 818





Mo Pinel

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:44 pm Post Number: #29 

Joined: January 26, 2010 Posts: 10054Reputation:
642
Reputation Power: 7

kellytehuna wrote: Here are the raw formulae. I've decided I'm going to rewrite the whole suite of tools I have and re post them when they're done. BE WARNED! A LOT OF MATH FOLLOWS! LOL!
To find the PSA to PAP distance: a = Pin to PAP distance in inches b = Drilling angle in degrees
PSA to PAP = arccos[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * cos(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arccos is the inverse cos operation)
You should round up or down to the nearest 1/8", whichever you feel is best.
To find the Pin Buffer: a = Pin to PAP distance in inches b = VAL angle in degrees
Pin Buffer = arcsin[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * sin(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arcsin is the inverse sin operation)
Again, round up or down to the nearest 1/8". WOW! I think I underestimated you. My apologies! Please PM MathIsTruth about this one. He'll love it, and verify.





kellytehuna

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:49 pm Post Number: #30 

Joined: January 18, 2010 Posts: 2891 Location: Hazard, KYReputation:
271
Reputation Power: 3

I never told you calculus was my favorite subject at high school? There is a reason I ended up in Computer Science and not Industrial Chemistry
_________________ Father, Husband, Bowler, Web developer
15lb Morich DestroyR, Mania, Perpetual Motion, Craze, Frenzy, Mojave 15lb Radical Yeti 15lb Brunswick Slingshot, Avalanche Urethane
Highest score: 279 Highest series: 818





kellytehuna

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:04 pm Post Number: #31 

Joined: January 18, 2010 Posts: 2891 Location: Hazard, KYReputation:
271
Reputation Power: 3

kellytehuna wrote: Here are the raw formulae. I've decided I'm going to rewrite the whole suite of tools I have and re post them when they're done. BE WARNED! A LOT OF MATH FOLLOWS! LOL!
To find the PSA to PAP distance: a = Pin to PAP distance in inches b = Drilling angle in degrees
PSA to PAP = arccos[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * cos(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arccos is the inverse cos operation)
You should round up or down to the nearest 1/8", whichever you feel is best.
To find the Pin Buffer: a = Pin to PAP distance in inches b = VAL angle in degrees
Pin Buffer = arcsin[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * sin(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arcsin is the inverse sin operation)
Again, round up or down to the nearest 1/8". One note to be made: All angles are ultimately expressed in radians, since it's simpler to find the arc lengths from radians than it is to do so in degrees! So, make sure your calculators are in radians mode when you evaluate the trignometric functions.
_________________ Father, Husband, Bowler, Web developer
15lb Morich DestroyR, Mania, Perpetual Motion, Craze, Frenzy, Mojave 15lb Radical Yeti 15lb Brunswick Slingshot, Avalanche Urethane
Highest score: 279 Highest series: 818





DCGoD

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:20 pm Post Number: #32 

Joined: March 16, 2012 Posts: 3Reputation:
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Reputation Power: 1

Perfect! Thank you thank you!





jpj6780

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:52 pm Post Number: #33 

Joined: June 23, 2011 Posts: 333 Location: Lowcountry SCReputation:
27
Reputation Power: 1

Nice work Kelly!
If you're solving using the google search engine, use the following syntax (for it to be recognized by the google calculator)
Formula 1: you can copy and paste into google and then replace a with pin to pap and b with drilling angle to get psa to pap distance
arccos (sin(a* pi / 13.5) * cos(b * pi / 180)) * 13.5 / pi
Formula 2: you can copy and paste into google and then replace a with pin to pap and b with val angle to get pin buffer
arcsin (sin (a * pi/ 13.5) * sin(b * pi/ 180)) * 13.5 / pi
Last edited by jpj6780 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.





Mo Pinel

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:20 pm Post Number: #34 

Joined: January 26, 2010 Posts: 10054Reputation:
642
Reputation Power: 7

jpj6780 wrote: Nice work Kelly!
If you're solving using the google search engine, use the following syntax (for it to be recognized by the google calculator)
Formula 1: you can copy and paste into google and then replace a with pin to pap and b with drilling angle to get psa to pap distance
arccos (sin(a* pi / 13.5) * cos(b * pi / 180)) * 13.5 / pi
Formula 2: you can copy and paste into google and then replace a with pin to pap and b with val angle to get pin buffer
arcsin (sin (a * pi/ 13.5) * sin(b * pi/ 180)) * 13.5 / pi These guys are good!





MathIsTruth

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:03 pm Post Number: #35 

Joined: January 19, 2010 Posts: 543 Location: Washington, WVReputation:
143
Reputation Power: 2

kellytehuna wrote: Here are the raw formulae. I've decided I'm going to rewrite the whole suite of tools I have and re post them when they're done. BE WARNED! A LOT OF MATH FOLLOWS! LOL!
To find the PSA to PAP distance: a = Pin to PAP distance in inches b = Drilling angle in degrees
PSA to PAP = arccos[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * cos(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arccos is the inverse cos operation)
You should round up or down to the nearest 1/8", whichever you feel is best.
To find the Pin Buffer: a = Pin to PAP distance in inches b = VAL angle in degrees
Pin Buffer = arcsin[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * sin(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arcsin is the inverse sin operation)
Again, round up or down to the nearest 1/8". Excellent work te huna. I enjoyed working through this. And just to be sure everyone is aware, the pin buffer distance is measured from the Pin to the VAL on a perpendicular line. Again thanks for the fun spherical trig, but then again, is there any other kind of spherical trig.





crashin12x

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:29 pm Post Number: #36 

Joined: November 22, 2011 Posts: 466Reputation:
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Reputation Power: 1

MathIsTruth wrote: kellytehuna wrote: Here are the raw formulae. I've decided I'm going to rewrite the whole suite of tools I have and re post them when they're done. BE WARNED! A LOT OF MATH FOLLOWS! LOL!
To find the PSA to PAP distance: a = Pin to PAP distance in inches b = Drilling angle in degrees
PSA to PAP = arccos[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * cos(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arccos is the inverse cos operation)
You should round up or down to the nearest 1/8", whichever you feel is best.
To find the Pin Buffer: a = Pin to PAP distance in inches b = VAL angle in degrees
Pin Buffer = arcsin[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * sin(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arcsin is the inverse sin operation)
Again, round up or down to the nearest 1/8". Excellent work te huna. I enjoyed working through this. And just to be sure everyone is aware, the pin buffer distance is measured from the Pin to the VAL on a perpendicular line. Again thanks for the fun spherical trig, but then again, is there any other kind of spherical trig.Just wow! Great Job Kelly!
_________________ LHB PAP 5" over LEFT x 7/8" over UP Tilt 18* Speed 16 MPH (Off Hand) Rev 250 RPM Rot 65*





TheJesus

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:16 am Post Number: #37 

Joined: July 14, 2017 Posts: 68Reputation:
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Reputation Power: 1

Great topic guys, and i have a question. What if we have the old system and want to convert it to Dual Angles ? Do we have a similar conversion formula like the one posted previously ? Or alternatively, could someone explain how to we read the conversion table on the Dual Angles sheet? I am not sure i am reading it right (a am not a driller).





bowl1820

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:59 am Post Number: #38 

Joined: July 9, 2012 Posts: 1347 Location: Central FloridaReputation:
464
Reputation Power: 5

TheJesus wrote: Great topic guys, and i have a question. What if we have the old system and want to convert it to Dual Angles ? Do we have a similar conversion formula like the one posted previously ? . Go the Wiki here: http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Proshop_Informationand go down to the Pin Buffer to Dual Angle Converter it's a Spreadsheet to convert pin buffer layouts to dual angles and vice versa.
_________________ Click my green + rep button if this helps! "REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."





TheJesus

Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:28 pm Post Number: #39 

Joined: July 14, 2017 Posts: 68Reputation:
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Reputation Power: 1

@bowl1820 Thank you ! rep button pressed !! I will go check it out right away !





