converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by JohnP » March 19th, 2012, 12:21 am

And, Mo, WE DO APPRECIATE IT!!! -- JohnP

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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by KYBOB » March 19th, 2012, 12:34 am

[quote]And, Mo, WE DO APPRECIATE IT!!! -- JohnP/quote]

!!!! DITTO !!!!
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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by elgavachon » March 19th, 2012, 12:11 pm

I don't know how you do it Mo. Some people don't pay any attention to the time of day (and night) that you are here.

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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by MarkM » March 19th, 2012, 1:51 pm

I believe that almost everyone, but you, understands that. It's my choice and my pleasure.
I'm not sure if I just got blasted or if that was a friendly comment? (I sent DCG here) Let me assure you, I APPRECIATE your hard work on the wiki and I completely understand doing something for free. Hell, I had a product for 3 years that helped bowlers and gave it away free. I was merely requesting an answer to the original poster's question. Sorry, but this isn't the first forum where I have seen the "Just lay it out on the ball" answer. A true formula would help many bowlers and it just surprised me nobody has come up with this after years of Morich releasing the dual layout specs.

Kelly and Labrat will help out a lot of people as well as pro shop owners with their formulas. I never considered you the "answer man" and I was merely asking for other members to help this guy out since like I said, this isn't the first time I have heard this question. If you have the knowledge, spread it. If not, no worries, someone else can also contribute.

Having said that, thank you for all your work you do on here, I am sure everyone, including myself, appreciates it... Now can we just get back to being pissed at bowling? lol
Mo Pinel wrote:As Kelly said "It's all math and Spherical Trigonometry."

Let me answer to DCGoD is simple. I prefer helping people into the latest in technology. I'll guide people to locate the answers in the Wiki, which has taken a long time to develop and is the best technical resource for bowling on the net. I will help as much as I can, but I'm not just the "answer man". I already love spending an unimaginable amount of time supporting bowlingchat without any pay. I believe that almost everyone, but you, understands that. It's my choice and my pleasure.
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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by DCGoD » March 19th, 2012, 2:23 pm

I apologize if any offense was taken in my post Mo. I have heard nothing but great things from this forum. I have been looking for a formula for this and I can say I am a "trig man". :-( I also appreciate your hard work on the wiki. I'm sure it had helped thousands.

Sorry To get you involved Mark. I know my post sounded a little aggravated.
Mo Pinel wrote:As Kelly said "It's all math and Spherical Trigonometry."

Let me answer to DCGoD is simple. I prefer helping people into the latest in technology. I'll guide people to locate the answers in the Wiki, which has taken a long time to develop and is the best technical resource for bowling on the net. I will help as much as I can, but I'm not just the "answer man". I already love spending an unimaginable amount of time supporting bowlingchat without any pay. I believe that almost everyone, but you, understands that. It's my choice and my pleasure.

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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by MarkM » March 19th, 2012, 2:40 pm

No worries man! And yes, it did sound a little on the harsh side but I can see where your frustrations come from. Sorry if I handed you the incorrect formula but I did say that was just the general idea and not a full blown formula since it didn't even consider spherical values. Mainly just a ballpark. Hopefully those formulas the others posted will get you on track! Bowl well!
DCGoD wrote:I apologize if any offense was taken in my post Mo. I have heard nothing but great things from this forum. I have been looking for a formula for this and I can say I am a "trig man". :-( I also appreciate your hard work on the wiki. I'm sure it had helped thousands.

Sorry To get you involved Mark. I know my post sounded a little aggravated.
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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by Mo Pinel » March 19th, 2012, 2:41 pm

DCGoD wrote:I apologize if any offense was taken in my post Mo. I have heard nothing but great things from this forum. I have been looking for a formula for this and I can say I am a "trig man". :-( I also appreciate your hard work on the wiki. I'm sure it had helped thousands.

Sorry To get you involved Mark. I know my post sounded a little aggravated.
All is well! Just a result of writing everything down. Once it's in print, it IS forever!

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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by kellytehuna » March 19th, 2012, 2:41 pm

Here are the raw formulae. I've decided I'm going to rewrite the whole suite of tools I have and re post them when they're done. BE WARNED! A LOT OF MATH FOLLOWS! LOL!

To find the PSA to PAP distance:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = Drilling angle in degrees

PSA to PAP = arccos[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * cos(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arccos is the inverse cos operation)

You should round up or down to the nearest 1/8", whichever you feel is best.

To find the Pin Buffer:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = VAL angle in degrees

Pin Buffer = arcsin[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * sin(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arcsin is the inverse sin operation)

Again, round up or down to the nearest 1/8".
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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by Mo Pinel » March 19th, 2012, 2:44 pm

kellytehuna wrote:Here are the raw formulae. I've decided I'm going to rewrite the whole suite of tools I have and re post them when they're done. BE WARNED! A LOT OF MATH FOLLOWS! LOL!

To find the PSA to PAP distance:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = Drilling angle in degrees

PSA to PAP = arccos[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * cos(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arccos is the inverse cos operation)

You should round up or down to the nearest 1/8", whichever you feel is best.

To find the Pin Buffer:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = VAL angle in degrees

Pin Buffer = arcsin[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * sin(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arcsin is the inverse sin operation)

Again, round up or down to the nearest 1/8".
WOW! I think I underestimated you. My apologies! Please PM MathIsTruth about this one. He'll love it, and verify.

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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by kellytehuna » March 19th, 2012, 2:49 pm

I never told you calculus was my favorite subject at high school? ;) There is a reason I ended up in Computer Science and not Industrial Chemistry :)
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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by kellytehuna » March 19th, 2012, 3:04 pm

kellytehuna wrote:Here are the raw formulae. I've decided I'm going to rewrite the whole suite of tools I have and re post them when they're done. BE WARNED! A LOT OF MATH FOLLOWS! LOL!

To find the PSA to PAP distance:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = Drilling angle in degrees

PSA to PAP = arccos[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * cos(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arccos is the inverse cos operation)

You should round up or down to the nearest 1/8", whichever you feel is best.

To find the Pin Buffer:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = VAL angle in degrees

Pin Buffer = arcsin[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * sin(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arcsin is the inverse sin operation)

Again, round up or down to the nearest 1/8".

One note to be made: All angles are ultimately expressed in radians, since it's simpler to find the arc lengths from radians than it is to do so in degrees! So, make sure your calculators are in radians mode when you evaluate the trignometric functions.
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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by DCGoD » March 19th, 2012, 3:20 pm

Perfect! Thank you thank you!

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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by jpj6780 » March 19th, 2012, 3:52 pm

Nice work Kelly!

If you're solving using the google search engine, use the following syntax (for it to be recognized by the google calculator)

Formula 1:
you can copy and paste into google and then replace a with pin to pap and b with drilling angle to get psa to pap distance

arccos (sin(a* pi / 13.5) * cos(b * pi / 180)) * 13.5 / pi

Formula 2:
you can copy and paste into google and then replace a with pin to pap and b with val angle to get pin buffer

arcsin (sin (a * pi/ 13.5) * sin(b * pi/ 180)) * 13.5 / pi
Last edited by jpj6780 on March 19th, 2012, 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by Mo Pinel » March 19th, 2012, 6:20 pm

jpj6780 wrote:Nice work Kelly!

If you're solving using the google search engine, use the following syntax (for it to be recognized by the google calculator)

Formula 1:
you can copy and paste into google and then replace a with pin to pap and b with drilling angle to get psa to pap distance

arccos (sin(a* pi / 13.5) * cos(b * pi / 180)) * 13.5 / pi

Formula 2:
you can copy and paste into google and then replace a with pin to pap and b with val angle to get pin buffer

arcsin (sin (a * pi/ 13.5) * sin(b * pi/ 180)) * 13.5 / pi
These guys are good!

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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by MathIsTruth » March 21st, 2012, 4:03 pm

kellytehuna wrote:Here are the raw formulae. I've decided I'm going to rewrite the whole suite of tools I have and re post them when they're done. BE WARNED! A LOT OF MATH FOLLOWS! LOL!

To find the PSA to PAP distance:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = Drilling angle in degrees

PSA to PAP = arccos[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * cos(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arccos is the inverse cos operation)

You should round up or down to the nearest 1/8", whichever you feel is best.

To find the Pin Buffer:
a = Pin to PAP distance in inches
b = VAL angle in degrees

Pin Buffer = arcsin[sin(a * ∏ / 13.5) * sin(b * ∏ / 180)] * 13.5 / ∏ (arcsin is the inverse sin operation)

Again, round up or down to the nearest 1/8".
Excellent work te huna. I enjoyed working through this. And just to be sure everyone is aware, the pin buffer distance is measured from the Pin to the VAL on a perpendicular line. Again thanks for the fun spherical trig, but then again, is there any other kind of spherical trig.

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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by crashin12x » March 21st, 2012, 4:29 pm

MathIsTruth wrote: Excellent work te huna. I enjoyed working through this. And just to be sure everyone is aware, the pin buffer distance is measured from the Pin to the VAL on a perpendicular line. Again thanks for the fun spherical trig, but then again, is there any other kind of spherical trig.
Just wow! Great Job Kelly!
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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by TheJesus » August 24th, 2018, 10:16 am

Great topic guys, and i have a question. What if we have the old system and want to convert it to Dual Angles ? Do we have a similar conversion formula like the one posted previously ? Or alternatively, could someone explain how to we read the conversion table on the Dual Angles sheet? I am not sure i am reading it right (a am not a driller).

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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by bowl1820 » August 24th, 2018, 11:59 am

TheJesus wrote:Great topic guys, and i have a question. What if we have the old system and want to convert it to Dual Angles ? Do we have a similar conversion formula like the one posted previously ? .
Go the Wiki here:

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... nformation

and go down to the Pin Buffer to Dual Angle Converter it's a Spreadsheet to convert pin buffer layouts to dual angles and vice versa.
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Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout

Post by TheJesus » August 25th, 2018, 1:28 pm

@bowl1820 Thank you ! rep button pressed !! ;) I will go check it out right away !

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