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 Post subject: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:49 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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hello everyone just a question re layouts how do you convert a dual angle layout into a conventional ?" x ?" layout for example what would a 50 x 3,1/4 x 30 or a 60 x 3 x 40 be
any links to the wiki @ or answers please thank you


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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:44 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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lay it out on a ball and then measure it with whatever other method. That would be one way to do it.


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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:13 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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The drilling angle and pin to PAP distance determine the PSA to PAP distance. There is a chart in the Dual Angle Layout Procedure, link below, that gives PSA to PAP distances for various drilling angles and pin to PAP distances. -- JohnP

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... lAngle.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:15 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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rpm1 wrote:
hello everyone just a question re layouts how do you convert a dual angle layout into a conventional ?" x ?" layout for example what would a 50 x 3,1/4 x 30 or a 60 x 3 x 40 be
any links to the wiki @ or answers please thank you


WHY???


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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:48 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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I agree with Mo.Why would you want to use any other layout system.The dual angle layout system is the easiest and most accurate way to see ball motion.Please do not go back in time.


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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:54 am Post Number: #6 Post
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I am wondering why you would want to use another system of drilling bowling balls. The Dual-Angle method is the simplest system to use and it gives you mathematical precision and easy repeatability.

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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:50 am Post Number: #7 Post
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C'mon guys, there could be several reasons why he may want to do this. If he's stuck with a proshop like the one I go to, I can fully understand.

The driller here is very good with a drillpress. He can duplicate a drill pattern with uncanny accuracy, but he is not into the dual angle thing, and still prefers to use the old "0 X 0" format to lay balls out.

If I can take my dual angle measurments and convert them to a "0 X 0" format for him, he can mark it off and hit my span and pitches right so quick and easy, its almost scary.

So, instead of telling him I want a 60 X 5 X 70 with a p3 hole, I would just tell him to lay it out with a "pin down, 5 X 5, with a thumb quadrant x-hole just inside the val" layout.

If my driller is really accurate, does it matter if he knows what he's doing, as long as I do? In the end, isn't knowing my ball setup ultimately my responsibility anyway?


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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:15 am Post Number: #8 Post
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juggernaut wrote:
C'mon guys, there could be several reasons why he may want to do this. If he's stuck with a proshop like the one I go to, I can fully understand.

The driller here is very good with a drillpress. He can duplicate a drill pattern with uncanny accuracy, but he is not into the dual angle thing, and still prefers to use the old "0 X 0" format to lay balls out.

If I can take my dual angle measurments and convert them to a "0 X 0" format for him, he can mark it off and hit my span and pitches right so quick and easy, its almost scary.

So, instead of telling him I want a 60 X 5 X 70 with a p3 hole, I would just tell him to lay it out with a "pin down, 5 X 5, with a thumb quadrant x-hole just inside the val" layout.

If my driller is really accurate, does it matter if he knows what he's doing, as long as I do? In the end, isn't knowing my ball setup ultimately my responsibility anyway?


I developed the "old" system when I was at Faball in 1997 as the HOT spot drilling system. It requires the pin to PAP distance, the PSA to PAP distance, and the pin buffer (the perpendicular distance from the pin to the VAL). It's quite simple. Just mark the PAP on the ball and measure the distances. There a conversion chart in the Dual Angle drilling instructions. Done!


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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:04 am Post Number: #9 Post
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sorry guys if i caused a ripple could not reply sooner time diff.in uk,may be my fault not enought info.The reason behind the question is that a friend has given me a ebonite lanebreaker i already have one, layout old school i know the reaction of my ball therefore my thinking was if i could convert that layout into dual A. layout easily i have my foundation to work from @ alter the drill @ val angles to give me the desired reaction as this ball is to be pluged @ redrilled,I have no desire to use any other layout system but there are still a lot of drillers using old school , so the more i understand the more i can explain the better i can put my point over,just my way of trying to understand,that this in old school will = that in a D.A layout again sorry for the confusion.


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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:13 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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System for converting a ?" x ?" layout into Dual Angle terminology.
Courtesy of Mr. Menorevs



Also read this WIKI article about Symmetrical versus Asymmetrical balls:

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ll_Layouts

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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:40 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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rpm1 wrote:
sorry guys if i caused a ripple could not reply sooner time diff.in uk,may be my fault not enought info.The reason behind the question is that a friend has given me a ebonite lanebreaker i already have one, layout old school i know the reaction of my ball therefore my thinking was if i could convert that layout into dual A. layout easily i have my foundation to work from @ alter the drill @ val angles to give me the desired reaction as this ball is to be pluged @ redrilled,I have no desire to use any other layout system but there are still a lot of drillers using old school , so the more i understand the more i can explain the better i can put my point over,just my way of trying to understand,that this in old school will = that in a D.A layout again sorry for the confusion.


No ripple at all! Post #8 answers your question and the video posted by JMerrill addresses your concerns. Thanks, Jim.


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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:47 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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thanks jim @ mo very good visual explaining how to find my D.A layout from old school
?" x ?" what is it one picture speaks a thousand words again thanks, paul


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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:56 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Why is it that when people ask questions they are asked "Why"? And, "Have you read the chart?". These are not answers to the guys question. He merely asked if there was a formula for converting a dual angle layout to a conventional layout. The answer is YES. Spread the knowledge and don't just point the guy to a generic chart. Obviously that chart was converted with a FORMULA. Maybe he wants to calculate this himself to understand it better.

Let me get the ball rolling... If I'm not mistaken I believe it should go something like this.
PinToPAP = 5"
CGToPAP = 4.5"
MBToPAP = 2.5"

CG Angle = arctan(CGToPAP / PinToPAP) * 180 / PI = 45 degrees
VAL Angle = arcsin(MBToPAP / PinToPAP) * 180 / PI = 30 degrees


Now if anyone wants to help out and post the reversal of this (determine conventional from dual angle) I'm sure others would find it useful.


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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:19 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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Going either direction, the easiest way to convert is to draw the known layout on a ball and measure the parameters you're converting to. For example, to convert a dual angle layout to a Storm layout, draw the dual angle layout on a ball, then measure the pin to PAP, pin to MB or cg, and pin to VAL (pin buffer) distances. If you have a ProSect you can do it yourself, otherwise it will take your pro shop operator 5 minutes or less. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:43 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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Let's assume the guy has 15+ bowling balls. He needs to convert his drillings. Does anyone have an answer to this without requiring the person to lay the ball out physically? Surely someone knows the formula for conversion?

DCGoD's formula works (I sent it to him although its an estimate). But what about the other direction? ;-) I would think pro shops would be wanting this information as well. I don't see them taking every customers ball and relaying them out as you describe here. There is a much easier way... Fire up those calculus minds folks! :D

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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:51 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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It wouldn't take much. Some simple spherical trig identities and some quick calculations would have it done in no time.

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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:06 am Post Number: #17 Post
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I can't see how those formulas can be correct, since there is no pin-val distance and the cg-pap distance is not used in either system.

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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:05 am Post Number: #18 Post
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Ok.
VAL angle is arcsin(pin buffer/pin-PAP)
Drilling angle is arccos{[(pin-PAP)^2 - (mb-PAP)^2 + (6.75)^2]/[2 x 6.75 x (pin-PAP)]}

That assumes a flat surface, so both equations will underestimate the angles slightly since they are drawn on a sphere.

Going backwards, pin buffer is sin(VAL angle) x pin-PAP.
MB-PAP is sqrt[(6.75)^2 + (pin-PAP)^2 -2 x 6.75 x (pin-PAP) x cos(Drilling Angle)

Laying the ball out and measuring is going to be both more accurate and much simpler, IMO!

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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:13 am Post Number: #19 Post
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I just wrote a quick PHP script to handle this. It's quick and dirty, but it works and it's accurate. It's all math and Spherical Trigonometry. I'll post a link sometime tomorrow. I have to make a few adjustments to it first.

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 Post subject: Re: converting a dual angle layout to a ? x ? layout
 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:24 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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As Kelly said "It's all math and Spherical Trigonometry."

Let me answer to DCGoD is simple. I prefer helping people into the latest in technology. I'll guide people to locate the answers in the Wiki, which has taken a long time to develop and is the best technical resource for bowling on the net. I will help as much as I can, but I'm not just the "answer man". I already love spending an unimaginable amount of time supporting bowlingchat without any pay. I believe that almost everyone, but you, understands that. It's my choice and my pleasure.


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