Gradient Line change

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Gradient line questions

Post by scottbour »

I was at a Mo Pinel seminar on Friday and Mo said that P1 is 6 3/4 from the psa ie mass bias on the VAL and not on the PAP. P4 is the MB do you still go equal distance for P2 and P3 ,, and why is p1 no longer the PAP Thanks Scott
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Re: Gradient line questions

Post by MegaMav »

P1 - PAP
P4 - PSA

P2 & P3 are equidistant between P1 and P4

You can learn more about Gradient Line Balance Holes on the wiki.

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Re: Gradient line questions

Post by MathIsTruth »

scottbour wrote:I was at a Mo Pinel seminar on Friday and Mo said that P1 is 6 3/4 from the psa ie mass bias on the VAL and not on the PAP. P4 is the MB do you still go equal distance for P2 and P3 ,, and why is p1 no longer the PAP Thanks Scott
I recently discussed this with Mo and the definition has been altered slightly. The diffs will be reduced the most when we use a balance hole 6.75" from the high RG axis. This point on the VAL will become the P1 position and P2 and P3 will be equidistant between P1 and P4 as before. I will allow Mo to answer this question in more detail but we believe this in a necessary change. More to come....
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Re: Gradient line questions

Post by Mo Pinel »

MathIsTruth wrote: I recently discussed this with Mo and the definition has been altered slightly. The diffs will be reduced the most when we use a balance hole 6.75" from the high RG axis. This point on the VAL will become the P1 position and P2 and P3 will be equidistant between P1 and P4 as before. I will allow Mo to answer this question in more detail but we believe this in a necessary change. More to come....
MathIsTruth did the CAD work to verify this change. I'll publish something in the next couple of weeks when time permits. Friday's seminar was the first time I discussed it publicly. The gradient line now starts at the PSA (P4) goes directly to the PAP and then goes up the VAL to a point that is 6 3/4" from the PSA (NEW P1). This change resulted from CAD research. P2 and P3 are equally spaced on this two stage line. The only time the Gradient Line is now a straight line on the ball is when the drilling angle is 90*. This research began by examining layouts with smaller drilling angles. The reason we do not go past the VAL is that putting holes past the VAL increases the risk of flaring over the balance hole, especially on large flaring drillings and/or rev dominant players.
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Re: Gradient Line change

Post by kellytehuna »

Looking forward to seeing the tables on this one. I think I understand what you're saying, but need the visual for confirmation :D
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Re: Gradient Line change

Post by The Kid »

Couldn't you say that the largest differential change would be from a weight hole on the low RG axis? I'm assuming some understanding here (a dangerous thing, to be sure!), but if you use a weight hole placement 6 3/4" from the PSA that is not on the low RG axis, the result would be different depending on how close/far the placement is from the low RG axis... Correct?

An example:

1) Weight hole is on the Pin, decreasing the total differential the most while (nearly) maintaining the intermediate differential.

2) Weight hole is on the Intermediate Axis (also 6 3/4" away from the PSA), (nearly) maintaining the total differential while decreasing the intermediate differential the most.

Maybe?
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Re: Gradient Line change

Post by MathIsTruth »

The Kid wrote:Couldn't you say that the largest differential change would be from a weight hole on the low RG axis? I'm assuming some understanding here (a dangerous thing, to be sure!), but if you use a weight hole placement 6 3/4" from the PSA that is not on the low RG axis, the result would be different depending on how close/far the placement is from the low RG axis... Correct?

An example:

1) Weight hole is on the Pin, decreasing the total differential the most while (nearly) maintaining the intermediate differential.

2) Weight hole is on the Intermediate Axis (also 6 3/4" away from the PSA), (nearly) maintaining the total differential while decreasing the intermediate differential the most.

Maybe?
If you place a balance hole on the Pin (Low RG) then you just increased the RG value of that axis which will shift the LOW RG axis to the axis with the minimum RG value, thus altering the layout significantly. AND a balance hole on the Int RG axis will increase the RG of the intermediate RG axis and, thus, lower the intermediate diff.
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Re: Gradient Line change

Post by MathIsTruth »

kellytehuna wrote:Looking forward to seeing the tables on this one. I think I understand what you're saying, but need the visual for confirmation :D
It would have helped you to visualize it if I defined it correctly to begin with huh!! Draw a line from PSA(P4) to PAP and then draw another line up the VAL to the point(P1) that is 6.75" from the PSA. Add the distances of those two segments together and divide by 3 to obtain the distance between each balance hole location. Does that help?
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Re: Gradient Line change

Post by MegaMav »

A basic representation?
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Re: Gradient Line change

Post by Mo Pinel »

MegaMav wrote:A basic representation?

A good try, but slightly inaccurate. Please refer to my post #5 and MathIsTruth's post #9 for the accurate description. Please re-post an accurate pic by going up the line from the PSA to the PAP, then going up the VAL to find the point 6 3/4" from the PSA. It's a truncated line. That pic would be extremely valuable. Thanks for the help.
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Re: Gradient Line change

Post by MegaMav »

Lets try that again...
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Re: Gradient Line change

Post by Mo Pinel »

MegaMav wrote:Lets try that again...

PERFECT!!!!!!!
Thanks!
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Re: Gradient Line change

Post by Triplicate »

This topic just makes me curious why no P5 hole option?

Is there any reason for only 4 possibilities? Isn't it interpolation between the least and the most change anyway?

With 5 options you'd have 4 divisions equally space (instead of 3 or thirds) and this can be quickly determined by a mark "half way" between 1 and 5 and then again half way between 1 and 3 as well as 3 and 5. You'd end up with 4 quarters. (But not a dollar :lol: )

Would there be a big difference between a P3 hole now and a P4 in the above example?

Just visualizing. :idea:

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Re: Gradient Line change

Post by MattCosta7 »

Triplicate wrote:This topic just makes me curious why no P5 hole option?

Is there any reason for only 4 possibilities? Isn't it interpolation between the least and the most change anyway?

With 5 options you'd have 4 divisions equally space (instead of 3 or thirds) and this can be quickly determined by a mark "half way" between 1 and 5 and then again half way between 1 and 3 as well as 3 and 5. You'd end up with 4 quarters. (But not a dollar :lol: )
They are a position of --not really approximate, but not exactly real-- determinations of 20% changes of differential. There are an infinite number of placements, however, if we make 10 positions, then I think the change between 9 and 10 become so minor, that it creates more confusion than help. 5 is possible, however the %change would be less consistent, and I do not have the data to express them. The goal here is to allow many options of choices to alter any additional type of drilling. While making it simple to express to others, and to understand the alteration. 20% changes are simple to express and see.
Last edited by MattCosta7 on February 22nd, 2011, 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gradient Line change

Post by Mo Pinel »

MattCosta7 wrote: They are a position of --not really approximate, but not exactly real-- determinations of 20% changes of differential. There are an infinite number of placements, however, if we make 10 positions, then I think the change between 9 and 10 become so minor, that it creates more confusion than help. 5 is possible, however the %change would be less consistent, and I do not have the data to express them. The goal here is to allow many options of choices to alter any additional type of drilling. While making it simple to express to others, and to understand the alteration. 20% changes are simple to express and see.
It's like the Dewey Decimal System! I just refer to P1.5, P2.5, etc. to be more detailed when necessary.
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Re: Gradient Line change

Post by Triplicate »

Thanks guys. Good answers :!:
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Re: Gradient Line change

Post by Revkiller »

OK, with this new information, does this indicate that a P1 weight hole (previously on the PAP) from the previously described gradient line was actually neutral for dynamics and a P2 hole added dynamics as opposed to being approximately neutral?
If 'pro' is the opposite of 'con' what is the opposite of 'progress'?
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Re: Gradient Line change

Post by Mo Pinel »

Revkiller wrote:OK, with this new information, does this indicate that a P1 weight hole (previously on the PAP) from the previously described gradient line was actually neutral for dynamics and a P2 hole added dynamics as opposed to being approximately neutral?
Only on layouts with smaller drilling angles. Draw the new gradient line on the ball and transpose the location of the balance hole with the new scale to get your answer.
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Re: Gradient Line change

Post by cvette04 »

Is this new information true for symmetrical and asymmetrical balls. Are we to always use this 6.75 distance from the PSA to PAP then up the VAL as P1? Also if this 6.75 distance is constant the spacing between P1 and P4 will always be the same distance. On symmetrical balls is there still the two different PSA locations to figure from? The 6.75 pin through CG and the below the thumb method?
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Re: Gradient Line change

Post by MattCosta7 »

cvette04 wrote:Is this new information true for symmetrical and asymmetrical balls. Are we to always use this 6.75 distance from the PSA to PAP then up the VAL as P1? Also if this 6.75 distance is constant the spacing between P1 and P4 will always be the same distance. On symmetrical balls is there still the two different PSA locations to figure from? The 6.75 pin through CG and the below the thumb method?

There is only 1 PSA to figure from on a symmetric core. It is typically around the thumbhole, but requires a determinator to be exact.

When you setup the ball to drill the holes we use the line through the cg in order to assist in leaving ample weights for balance hole removal, but once the ball is drilled the gradient line is drawn from the thumbhole (or the determinated PSA) to the axis, then up then VAL.
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