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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:54 pm Post Number: #21 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
My daughter is learning to roll with the 2 handed motion and is working with 15* of tilt. Her PAP is close to 4 over and 3 up from the bridge. The initial track is below the fingers.
I bowl with a no thumb one hander with close to 20* of tilt., his PAP is the opposite way 4 over and almost 4 down. The initial track is above the fingers.


Interesting. I’ve just yet to work with a 2 hander that has those specs. Most are near 0 to negative that I’ve seen. My sons pap is like 6 1/4 right and 1.5 down. I don’t remember exactly but that’s close

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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:55 pm Post Number: #22 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
You assume the 2 bowlers have the same PAP.
No thumb bowlers can be very different completely changing what the layout actually is.

What ball is being used in this exercise?


Eric,
For this exercise lets use the track paradox.
I find your statement about no thumb bowlers intriguing and ask in what ways the layout may be changed and what causes the changes.
I'm assuming the PAPs are the same for the purpose of this exercise. In reality the PAP on the ball would be in a different spot on the ball because of the location of the midline being different between bowlers, all else being equal.

If we were to use my span and used my midline, my PAP would be 6 1/4 over and the PAP of the other bowler would be 6 1/4 over and 2 3/4 down. Would this difference in PAP account for the difference in ball reaction that the as drilled properties of the ball suggest? The properties would have to be different since the holes are in different spots.

One could use blueprint but from my understanding there is no way to not put in a thumb hole and the shortcut suggested earlier, I would assume, would put the midline in a different spot then through the fingers.

Jason

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PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery


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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:02 am Post Number: #23 Post
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fufu wrote:

Interesting. I’ve just yet to work with a 2 hander that has those specs. Most are near 0 to negative that I’ve seen. My sons pap is like 6 1/4 right and 1.5 down. I don’t remember exactly but that’s close


Fufu,
Out of curiosity is your sons span around 3 inches and is the ball drilled with a thumb hole. If so that could explain why the PAP isn't closer to zero.

Jason

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PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery


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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:48 pm Post Number: #24 Post
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Bluelobstor wrote:

Eric,
For this exercise lets use the track paradox.
I find your statement about no thumb bowlers intriguing and ask in what ways the layout may be changed and what causes the changes.
I'm assuming the PAPs are the same for the purpose of this exercise. In reality the PAP on the ball would be in a different spot on the ball because of the location of the midline being different between bowlers, all else being equal.

If we were to use my span and used my midline, my PAP would be 6 1/4 over and the PAP of the other bowler would be 6 1/4 over and 2 3/4 down. Would this difference in PAP account for the difference in ball reaction that the as drilled properties of the ball suggest? The properties would have to be different since the holes are in different spots.

One could use blueprint but from my understanding there is no way to not put in a thumb hole and the shortcut suggested earlier, I would assume, would put the midline in a different spot then through the fingers.

Jason


The core would be in a different position if both used same layouts

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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:00 pm Post Number: #25 Post
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Attached are a couple of visuals that show how different the same layout would look.
I chose 70-5-70 for the example.

Note what looks the same, it is the relationship of the initial track and line of the drilling angle.

If the no thumber rolls your ball the layout would be more like 30-4 7/8-85


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:28 pm Post Number: #26 Post
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Thanks Eric,
I'm curious to know when you give recommendations for layouts if you take into consideration whether or not a bowler uses their thumb or if you just use tilt, rotation, speed, and rev rate?

Jason

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PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery


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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:26 pm Post Number: #27 Post
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Bluelobstor wrote:
Thanks Eric,
I'm curious to know when you give recommendations for layouts if you take into consideration whether or not a bowler uses their thumb or if you just use tilt, rotation, speed, and rev rate?

Jason

Interestingly enough I do not take into consideration if a bowler uses there thumb or not for the initial work up of the basic arsenal list.
Once a ball is chosen and I am asked for a specific layout for that ball I then consider what the holes or lack of holes will do to the core before I make that recommendation. The specific recommendation will be based on the range of the basic arsenal list I start with.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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