Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?

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fufu
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Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?

Post by fufu »

EricHartwell wrote: My daughter is learning to roll with the 2 handed motion and is working with 15* of tilt. Her PAP is close to 4 over and 3 up from the bridge. The initial track is below the fingers.
I bowl with a no thumb one hander with close to 20* of tilt., his PAP is the opposite way 4 over and almost 4 down. The initial track is above the fingers.
Interesting. I’ve just yet to work with a 2 hander that has those specs. Most are near 0 to negative that I’ve seen. My sons pap is like 6 1/4 right and 1.5 down. I don’t remember exactly but that’s close
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Bluelobstor
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Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?

Post by Bluelobstor »

EricHartwell wrote: You assume the 2 bowlers have the same PAP.
No thumb bowlers can be very different completely changing what the layout actually is.

What ball is being used in this exercise?
Eric,
For this exercise lets use the track paradox.
I find your statement about no thumb bowlers intriguing and ask in what ways the layout may be changed and what causes the changes.
I'm assuming the PAPs are the same for the purpose of this exercise. In reality the PAP on the ball would be in a different spot on the ball because of the location of the midline being different between bowlers, all else being equal.

If we were to use my span and used my midline, my PAP would be 6 1/4 over and the PAP of the other bowler would be 6 1/4 over and 2 3/4 down. Would this difference in PAP account for the difference in ball reaction that the as drilled properties of the ball suggest? The properties would have to be different since the holes are in different spots.

One could use blueprint but from my understanding there is no way to not put in a thumb hole and the shortcut suggested earlier, I would assume, would put the midline in a different spot then through the fingers.

Jason
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Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?

Post by Bluelobstor »

fufu wrote:
Interesting. I’ve just yet to work with a 2 hander that has those specs. Most are near 0 to negative that I’ve seen. My sons pap is like 6 1/4 right and 1.5 down. I don’t remember exactly but that’s close
Fufu,
Out of curiosity is your sons span around 3 inches and is the ball drilled with a thumb hole. If so that could explain why the PAP isn't closer to zero.

Jason
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Rev Rate ~450
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Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?

Post by 44boyd »

Bluelobstor wrote:
Eric,
For this exercise lets use the track paradox.
I find your statement about no thumb bowlers intriguing and ask in what ways the layout may be changed and what causes the changes.
I'm assuming the PAPs are the same for the purpose of this exercise. In reality the PAP on the ball would be in a different spot on the ball because of the location of the midline being different between bowlers, all else being equal.

If we were to use my span and used my midline, my PAP would be 6 1/4 over and the PAP of the other bowler would be 6 1/4 over and 2 3/4 down. Would this difference in PAP account for the difference in ball reaction that the as drilled properties of the ball suggest? The properties would have to be different since the holes are in different spots.

One could use blueprint but from my understanding there is no way to not put in a thumb hole and the shortcut suggested earlier, I would assume, would put the midline in a different spot then through the fingers.

Jason
The core would be in a different position if both used same layouts
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EricHartwell
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Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?

Post by EricHartwell »

Attached are a couple of visuals that show how different the same layout would look.
I chose 70-5-70 for the example.

Note what looks the same, it is the relationship of the initial track and line of the drilling angle.

If the no thumber rolls your ball the layout would be more like 30-4 7/8-85
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Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?

Post by Bluelobstor »

Thanks Eric,
I'm curious to know when you give recommendations for layouts if you take into consideration whether or not a bowler uses their thumb or if you just use tilt, rotation, speed, and rev rate?

Jason
PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
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Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?

Post by EricHartwell »

Bluelobstor wrote:Thanks Eric,
I'm curious to know when you give recommendations for layouts if you take into consideration whether or not a bowler uses their thumb or if you just use tilt, rotation, speed, and rev rate?

Jason
Interestingly enough I do not take into consideration if a bowler uses there thumb or not for the initial work up of the basic arsenal list.
Once a ball is chosen and I am asked for a specific layout for that ball I then consider what the holes or lack of holes will do to the core before I make that recommendation. The specific recommendation will be based on the range of the basic arsenal list I start with.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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