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 Post subject: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:57 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Hello to Everyone,
As the title suggest I am curious if the dual angle is effective for everyone? Are the limitations set by this method true for all or can exceptions be made? For example, the val angle is said to be kept between 20 and 70 degrees yet for me I could never have the pin below my fingers unless I have a val angle greater than 90 degrees.

For anyone that may not know I do not use a thumb and don't drill a thumb hole. USBC states that between the fingers is grip center and being my pap is 6 1/4 straight over if I put the pin anywhere on that line such as in the ring finger it would create a 90 degree val angle.

Jason

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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:09 am Post Number: #2 Post
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Why does the "legal" grip center actually matter if the static weight rules are 3oz on any axis without a balance hole?
It is almost impossible to drill a ball statically illegal at this point in time.
We need rules, but the current two-handed rules are absurd.

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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:27 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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It’s so they don’t have 2 different balls in one.

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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:20 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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snick wrote:
Why does the "legal" grip center actually matter if the static weight rules are 3oz on any axis without a balance hole?
It is almost impossible to drill a ball statically illegal at this point in time.
We need rules, but the current two-handed rules are absurd.

I'm not sure that it does but coincidentally having a thumb hole in the ball ,for me, has a difference of about three inches of where my pap is even though I'm still only using 2 fingers to grip with. With the thumb hole my pap is 6 over using the traditional grip center and with out a thumb hole my pap is 6 1/4 over using the new grip center. The grip center is 2 3\4" lower with a thumb hole if using the distance between thumb hole and finger holes.

Jason

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PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery


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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:26 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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44boyd wrote:
It’s so they don’t have 2 different balls in one.

I would have to disagree with this statement as I could flip the ball 180 degrees and still keep the same grip center. This is why the USBC has added that I have to mark a spot on the ball that is considered the center of my grip and at all times the palm of my hand has to completely cover this mark.

Jason

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PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery


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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:26 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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https://www.google.com/search?q=radical+no+thumb+layout&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=isvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiMiKDcj6DeAhUH7VMKHZq1CkgQ_AUIESgB&biw=375&bih=635#imgrc=PqSTY8k6kAf1-M

So center of grip and grip center is not the same thing? So new rules you can’t flip 180, right now you can.

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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:51 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Here's from the USBC FAQ's about the new rules


#5. With the new gripping hole rule, am I required to drill a thumb hole?
No. In fact, if you aren’t using the thumb hole for gripping purposes on every delivery,
you’re not allowed to have a thumb hole. If a bowler does not use a thumb hole, there
must be a scribed or engraved “+” near the center of the palm to indicate the grip
orientation. The ball must be delivered in the marked orientation (i.e. palm must cover the
“+”).

In addition, bowlers who do not use their thumb and decide to use the higher static weight
specification starting Aug. 1, 2018, cannot have a thumb hole drilled in their ball as it
would be classified a balance hole. They would also be required to follow the specification
requiring them to mark their intended center of palm immediately.

Attachment:
2018BTS-FAQ.pdf


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:56 am Post Number: #8 Post
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You can use your thumb in grip center for layout purposes without having to drill the thumb but always use the same pseudo span. Mitch Beasley tech director from Track taught me that on Blueprint you can cheat the program by entering the thumbhole values to be 1/4” deep and 1/4” wide so that the program will give you all your numbers and reaction for what a ball with only two holes drilled would be.


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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:33 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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44boyd wrote:

Thanks for the link but I don't see where any specific layouts are mentioned other than pin to PAP. Also I noticed they reference the pin buffer system instead of the dual angle method.
I think we are all saying the same thing just in different ways. Since the rule change there is only 1 way I can legally orient the ball because if I choose to have no thumb drilled then I must mark the center of my grip.

Jason

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PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery


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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:55 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Quote:
If a bowler does not use a thumb hole, there must be a scribed or engraved “+” near the center of the palm to indicate the grip orientation. The ball must be delivered in the marked orientation (i.e. palm must cover the
“+”).


This is good in theory, but in practice who is going to be the "+" sign sheriff? How will you be able to prove which orientation was used? It's going to be his word against your word. Worthless rule. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:36 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
You can use your thumb in grip center for layout purposes without having to drill the thumb but always use the same pseudo span. Mitch Beasley tech director from Track taught me that on Blueprint you can cheat the program by entering the thumbhole values to be 1/4” deep and 1/4” wide so that the program will give you all your numbers and reaction for what a ball with only two holes drilled would be.


Thanks for this tidbit. I want to download the trial version but will probably wait until after the baby is born in a couple weeks.

Question about blueprint. If I use your cheat to simulate a no thumb drilling where will blueprint put the midline, inline with the fingers or halfway between finger holes and thumb holes? I ask because it makes a difference as to where blueprint places the PAP.

Jason

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PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery


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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:42 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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JohnP wrote:

This is good in theory, but in practice who is going to be the "+" sign sheriff? How will you be able to prove which orientation was used? It's going to be his word against your word. Worthless rule. -- JohnP

You are absolutely correct John as the bowler is the only one who really knows what grip position was used.

Jason

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PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery


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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:54 am Post Number: #13 Post
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Yes the DA system works the same for everyone. “Pin under” means diddly squat. What matters is the way it’s drilled not the way it looks. As a PSO, it’s the thing I fight the most. People say “it doesn’t look like my buddies”.....Or I get told I’m using “exotic” layouts when I’m simply giving people the a layout based on their PAP no some picture on the drill sheet.

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Last edited by fufu on Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:57 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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IMO, It is the utilization of the off-hand to support the ball, thus removing thumb timing as a variable, that is a significant difference between no-thumbers and traditional bowlers. Thumb in or out, the rev-rate is bound to be higher if the thumb is not used to grip or support the ball, and does not interfere with the transfer of the ball to the lane.

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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:24 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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fufu wrote:
Yes the DA system works the same for everyone. “Pin under” means diddly squat. What matters is the way it’s drilled not the way it looks. As a PSO, it’s the thing I fight the most. People say “it doesn’t look like my buddies”.....Or I get told I’m using “exotic” layouts when I’m simply giving people the a layout based on their PAP no some picture on the drill sheet.


I don't care where the pin is or if it looks like like someone else's as everyone is different. I was just using a pin down drilling as an example since I could never put the pin below the fingers without breaking the rules of the dual angle methodology. What I'm trying to find out and would like varying opinions, and enjoy a good discussion, has to do with the drilled properties of a bowling ball. Where mass is removed from the core and the density of the mass has an effect on ball motion.

I'm going to make an assumption here that may be faulty but makes sense to me and that is two bowlers with the same specs, same layout on the same ball, bowling on the same lanes should have similar if not the same ball reaction.

Lets use my specs for the two bowlers with the only difference being one bowler uses the thumb and the other bowler does not.

Rev rate 450
Speed off hand 16.5
Tilt 10 degrees
Rotation 40-50 degrees
Pap 6 1/4 straight over
Layout is 90x3x70

The as drilled properties should be different between both bowling balls but ball reaction based off of bowler specs should in theory be the same since their specs are identical. My assumption based on specs could be wrong and if so why?

I'm just trying to learn as I'm not satisfied just knowing what to do but the why behind it if that makes sense. I like to understand what exactly is going on.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions and am looking forward to everyone's feedback.

Jason

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PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery


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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:07 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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I’d review the Wiki if I was you and take the Layout class they have available on this forum. But a generalization is that to say 50 degrees is the average/median, so any number lower makes the ball react sooner and higher would make it react later. So your example layout would be a long smooth type reaction just off the numbers given.

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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:53 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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I understand the wiki and have graduated from the class. In my example the ball should go long with a nice arc. I'm trying to learn why me and someone else would have different reactions even if we had the same specs just because you throw with a thumb and I don't?

I appreciate everyone that has responded and look forward to more responses.

Jason

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PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery


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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:01 am Post Number: #18 Post
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Bluelobstor wrote:

I don't care where the pin is or if it looks like like someone else's as everyone is different. I was just using a pin down drilling as an example since I could never put the pin below the fingers without breaking the rules of the dual angle methodology. What I'm trying to find out and would like varying opinions, and enjoy a good discussion, has to do with the drilled properties of a bowling ball. Where mass is removed from the core and the density of the mass has an effect on ball motion.

I'm going to make an assumption here that may be faulty but makes sense to me and that is two bowlers with the same specs, same layout on the same ball, bowling on the same lanes should have similar if not the same ball reaction.

Lets use my specs for the two bowlers with the only difference being one bowler uses the thumb and the other bowler does not.

Rev rate 450
Speed off hand 16.5
Tilt 10 degrees
Rotation 40-50 degrees
Pap 6 1/4 straight over
Layout is 90x3x70

The as drilled properties should be different between both bowling balls but ball reaction based off of bowler specs should in theory be the same since their specs are identical. My assumption based on specs could be wrong and if so why?

I'm just trying to learn as I'm not satisfied just knowing what to do but the why behind it if that makes sense. I like to understand what exactly is going on.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions and am looking forward to everyone's feedback.

Jason

You assume the 2 bowlers have the same PAP.
No thumb bowlers can be very different completely changing what the layout actually is.

What ball is being used in this exercise?

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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:54 am Post Number: #19 Post
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Bluelobstor wrote:

I don't care where the pin is or if it looks like like someone else's as everyone is different. I was just using a pin down drilling as an example since I could never put the pin below the fingers without breaking the rules of the dual angle methodology. What I'm trying to find out and would like varying opinions, and enjoy a good discussion, has to do with the drilled properties of a bowling ball. Where mass is removed from the core and the density of the mass has an effect on ball motion.

I'm going to make an assumption here that may be faulty but makes sense to me and that is two bowlers with the same specs, same layout on the same ball, bowling on the same lanes should have similar if not the same ball reaction.

Lets use my specs for the two bowlers with the only difference being one bowler uses the thumb and the other bowler does not.

Rev rate 450
Speed off hand 16.5
Tilt 10 degrees
Rotation 40-50 degrees
Pap 6 1/4 straight over
Layout is 90x3x70

The as drilled properties should be different between both bowling balls but ball reaction based off of bowler specs should in theory be the same since their specs are identical. My assumption based on specs could be wrong and if so why?

I'm just trying to learn as I'm not satisfied just knowing what to do but the why behind it if that makes sense. I like to understand what exactly is going on.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions and am looking forward to everyone's feedback.

Jason



I’ve yet to see a 2hander with 10* of tilt, nor with a PAP that’s the same as a one hander.

But let’s say a one hander and two hander have the exact same specs but one ball has a thumb hole and the other doesn’t. Same Layout, same pap, everything else the same...then I’d exact the one hander ball to be /slightly/ sharper than the two hander due to the increased asymmetry from the thumb hole.

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Axis tilt: 17*
Axis rotation: 55
Speed: 15.5-16 at the decks
PAP: 5R, 1/4U


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 Post subject: Re: Dual Angle Layout Effective For Everyone?
 Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:53 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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fufu wrote:
I’ve yet to see a 2hander with 10* of tilt, nor with a PAP that’s the same as a one hander.

My daughter is learning to roll with the 2 handed motion and is working with 15* of tilt. Her PAP is close to 4 over and 3 up from the bridge. The initial track is below the fingers.
I bowl with a no thumb one hander with close to 20* of tilt., his PAP is the opposite way 4 over and almost 4 down. The initial track is above the fingers.

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