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 Post subject: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:47 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Hi! I have a question
The low flare layout 110*1-1/2*50 put the PSA further than 6-3/4" from my PAP...
I am going to use this layout on Hammer Black Widow Urethane
Is this correct position the PSA for proper ball motion?
Thanks
Pavel

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PAP 5.0" up 0"
more 60* rotation
18* tilt (about 11" track)
300-330 rev rate
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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:46 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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I’ll let the gurus say, but I’d think a low flare on a urethane would make it almost a spare ball.

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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:21 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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44boyd wrote:
I’ll let the gurus say, but I’d think a low flare on a urethane would make it almost a spare ball.

The question is : is it possible and correct to use the layout which puts the PSA in position further than 6-3/4 " from the PAP on an asymmetrical ball (on symmetrical one's it is not a problem besause the first angle doesn't have any impact on ball motion ... Am I right?)


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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:19 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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That can only be answered by the reaction you’re wanting.

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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:10 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Pavel wrote:
Hi! I have a question
The low flare layout 110*1-1/2*50 put the PSA further than 6-3/4" from my PAP...
I am going to use this layout on Hammer Black Widow Urethane
Is this correct position the PSA for proper ball motion?
Thanks
Pavel

Left Handed
PAP 5.0" up 0"
more 60* rotation
18* tilt (about 11" track)
300-330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

I would lower the drilling angle so that you have 6 1/2". I have gone 8" and the ball wasn't any good. The other option is to really put it a long way (almost to the negative axis). Mo has done that on a few balls for 2 handers. I tried that layout and it killed the ball, but still had a little left, but on urethane, I would stay between 5 1/2 and 6 1/2".


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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:59 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
I would lower the drilling angle so that you have 6 1/2". I have gone 8" and the ball wasn't any good. The other option is to really put it a long way (almost to the negative axis). Mo has done that on a few balls for 2 handers. I tried that layout and it killed the ball, but still had a little left, but on urethane, I would stay between 5 1/2 and 6 1/2".


What about this? I am not sure that the first angle is less than 90*

Guru Supreme Low Flare Layout Compared to a Strong Layout YouTube - 3 янв. 2016 г.

https://www.google.com.ua/url?sa=t&sour ... OD4xbU2nov


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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:11 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Are you trying to get a pre drilled ball?

Can’t see that link since it’s UA

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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:16 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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Pavel wrote:
The question is : is it possible and correct to use the layout which puts the PSA in position further than 6-3/4 " from the PAP on an asymmetrical ball (on symmetrical one's it is not a problem besause the first angle doesn't have any impact on ball motion ... Am I right?


It does so have an impact, it's just that you don't have the control of final PSA placement w/o a weight hole now.
On Symm's the PSA ends up around the thumbhole. The only control of Drill angle is from pin placement - i.e very limited.


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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:20 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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imagonman wrote:
On Symm's the PSA ends up around the thumbhole.


Im about to blow a gasket, I see this too much.
Its not accurate, even the Radical facebook page has said this, not good!

In a drilled symmetrical ball without a balance hole the PSA or High RG axis will be 6 3/4" from the Low RG axis within 1/2" of the centerline.

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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:22 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Here is the youtube link.https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ong+Layout. Just copy and paste if this link didn't show up.
Really I woudn't put that layout on urethane.I know its asymmetrical it will be a spare ball.I use 110 x 1 1/4 x 50 and 90 x 2 1/4 x 45 alot.I am rev dominant slower speed and they work great on strong asymmetrics on these wet/dry houseshots.


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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:27 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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44boyd wrote:
Are you trying to get a pre drilled ball?

Can’t see that link since it’s UA


Try to find it in youtube by name

Or another

Guru Master Layouts for Hooking Lanes


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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:33 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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bowlingforsoup wrote:
Here is the youtube link.https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ong+Layout. Just copy and paste if this link didn't show up.
Really I woudn't put that layout on urethane.I know its asymmetrical it will be a spare ball.I use 110 x 1 1/4 x 50 and 90 x 2 1/4 x 45 alot.I am rev dominant slower speed and they work great on strong asymmetrics on these wet/dry houseshots.

So the first angle could be more than 90* on asym. And it is correct for dual angles system? I don't say about a coverstock...


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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:41 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Pavel wrote:
So the first angle could be more than 90* on asym. And it is correct for dual angles system? I don't say about a coverstock...

160 is the suggested max total, Mo recommends no higher than 90 on the Wikipedia for drilling angle.

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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:43 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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Pavel wrote:
The low flare layout 110*1-1/2*50 put the PSA further than 6-3/4" from my PAP...


Not recommended.
With that high of a drill angle its possible the ball will never rev up.
Weak hitting power. Consult with a Hammer/EBI representative.

Use a Brunswick/DV8/Radical ball and I will advise you.

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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:48 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Im about to blow a gasket, I see this too much.
Its not accurate, even the Radical facebook page has said this, not good!

In a drilled symmetrical ball without a balance hole the PSA or High RG axis will be 6 3/4" from the Low RG axis within 1/2" of the centerline.


Yeah, then argue & blow a gasket @ MO then!

See this @ 43:00 but more so @ 50:00 pt. #1 in B&W!


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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:50 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Not recommended.
With that high of a drill angle its possible the ball will never rev up.
Weak hitting power. Consult with a Hammer/EBI representative.

Use a Brunswick/DV8/Radical ball and I will advise you.

In any case thank you for your answers. Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:15 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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imagonman wrote:
Yeah, then argue & blow a gasket @ MO then!


I've disputed it and got no response.
Rebuttal or not, it isnt accurate.
It doesnt really matter in the end because we cant chance symmetrical ball drilling angles with a hole.

Accuracy involves technicality and it may be beyond what they want to convey.

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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:35 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

I've disputed it and got no response.
Rebuttal or not, it isnt accurate.
It doesnt really matter in the end because we cant chance symmetrical ball drilling angles with a hole.

Accuracy involves technicality and it may be beyond what they want to convey.


……...and technically I agree w/ you. Why he makes that generalized statement is beyond me, especially after showing the pin down Intel w/ the PSA marked on the drawing WELL below the thumbhole. I guess that means or is close enough to 'in the thumbhole'???????? Got me.....shrug. :?

The Hi RG is 6-3/4" from the pin or Low RG.

If one drills w/ the pin in grip center of a 4-1/2" span, let's say, that puts the center of thumbhole @ ,what 3" or less? That's NOT even 1/2 way to the Hi RG!
More technically correct would be to say that the PSA is 6-3/4" away from the pin ON A LINE thru the thumbhole within 1/2" of the grip centerline. NO?

On most pin up above fingers the PSA will usually fall in the thumbhole area @ 6-3/4" away.
Anyone w/ a Determinator should be able to prove all this easily & show it. I wish I had one!


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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:11 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

I've disputed it and got no response.
Rebuttal or not, it isnt accurate.
It doesnt really matter in the end because we cant chance symmetrical ball drilling angles with a hole.

Accuracy involves technicality and it may be beyond what they want to convey.

If it regards my response... I asked concrete question, other words : how do they link dual angles system and the low flare layout 110*1-1/4*60 on the Guru bowling ball shown? In this case the PSA to the PAP distance >6-3/4". Does the drill angle >90* possible and correct? I was not answered... Are there different systems for Hammer and Radical bowling balls? What could my response be?
From WiKi I found out that all asym balls show the same flare with the Pin to PAP distance from 2-1/4 to 5-3/4. Therefore to change a ball motion (its reaction) of asymm balls without holes there exists only way to change the sum of angles (or to change a surface) Am I right? Or use the Pin to PAP distance less than 2-1/4... Is it true?
Pavel


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 Post subject: Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
 Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:58 am Post Number: #20 Post
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Where the PAP migrates and how fast is significantly different between those Pin to PAP distances.
Treat the dual angle layout system as a sliding scale, not chunked up buckets of low, medium, high flare.

Drill angle to influence how early the ball revs up.
Pin to PAP distance on how fast or slow to burn off tilt and rotation.
VAL angle to control how long or short the hook zone is.

If you want a layout for your ball, contact a Hammer representative.
I am not familiar with their products.

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