Confused about Pin to PAP distances?

Ask Mo Pinel and the bowling industry's best your general questions, and get straight answers.

Moderators: Mo Pinel, ballspinner, MathIsTruth, purduepaul

Forum rules
Ask Mo Pinel and the bowling industry's best your questions, and get straight answers.
This forum is moderated exclusively by Mo & Friends.
Locked
User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3588
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Confused about Pin to PAP distances?

Post by EricHartwell » July 6th, 2018, 3:31 pm

Recently there have been recommendations from Mo on the facebook that do not make sense to some.
Specifically shorter Pin to PAP for Symmetrical balls.
I do not follow the facebook pages so I am not at liberty to comment about the specific recommendations that have been given.

I think the confusion is about the fact that we don't really know how Asymmetrical a Symmetrical ball/core is after we drill holes in it. I think Mo does know, especially when the recommendation is for a Radical ball. The Radical cores are barely Symmetrical to begin with.

The thing to remember is, it about the Drilled ball.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Lledsmarttam
Member
Member
Posts: 136
Joined: August 8th, 2017, 1:40 am
THS Average: 198
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed: 14-15 mph on monitor
Rev Rate: 325
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Optimus solid
Medium Oil Ball: Antidote, Zero Gravity
Light Oil Ball: Rave On,Pathogen
Location: Lake Geneva WI

Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?

Post by Lledsmarttam » September 7th, 2018, 1:05 am

So what your saying is if he gave a recommendation to follow it without question? Especially on a Radical ball?
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-14-15mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3588
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?

Post by EricHartwell » September 7th, 2018, 3:17 am

Lledsmarttam wrote:So what your saying is if he gave a recommendation to follow it without question? Especially on a Radical ball?
I am not saying to be a lemming and just accept without question. I was hoping to get some discussion going about the topic. I would have a hard time going against a recommendation from Mo on a Radical ball.

I am saying we need to consider what the griping holes do to the Asymmetry of a ball.

A lot of things happen when a hole is drilled into a ball.
The PSA moves towards the thumb hole on weaker Asymmetrical cored balls.
The low Rg axis as represented by the pin prior to drilling moves away from a drilled hole.
How much core is removed or not removed in the case of the finger scoop in the Radical balls.

There is word on the street that Radical will be putting out new drillsheets for their equipment soon.
It will be interesting to see what he will recommend now that balance holes are not really an option.
I have a good idea there will be recommendations to drill the thumb deeper for stronger reactions and drilling the fingers deeper to weaken the reaction. Working the static weights in conjunction with depth of gripping holes will also be an option.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

User avatar
imagonman
Member
Member
Posts: 125
Joined: January 21st, 2017, 5:18 pm
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Cleveland Ohio

Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?

Post by imagonman » September 7th, 2018, 4:56 am

EVRYONE needs to see the NEW video seminar before assuming anything...…………..this ones an eye opener for many & addresses & dispels many outdated myths as well.

The New Reality of BALL MOTION - The Rules Have Changed
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3588
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?

Post by EricHartwell » September 8th, 2018, 12:47 am

imagonman wrote:EVRYONE needs to see the NEW video seminar before assuming anything...…………..this ones an eye opener for many & addresses & dispels many outdated myths as well.

The New Reality of BALL MOTION - The Rules Have Changed
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There was nothing new in this video. Mo has been preaching the same information for 8 years via this site. Now it is more important because drillers can't fix a screw up with a balance hole. Surface is the only tuning method once you put holes in it.

Just wait the USBC might outlaw any balls that have been plugged. That's when the manufacturers will boost sales again in the future.

Gone are the days of buying a $100 dollar ball and utilizing a balance hole to make it react like a $200 ball.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3452
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?

Post by kajmk » September 8th, 2018, 4:07 pm

Regarding USBC recent changes to what may be done to a bowling ball -

What is your opinion, good, bad, neutral?
Do you care?
In your opinion, what percentage of bowler's are affected?
If you are a PSO, what's your expert opinion?
What was their rationale?
Any unexpected consequences?

The complexity would seem to mandate a computer in every shop with access to software that analyzed the variables coupled with bowler metrics, throw in environmental variables.
Sounds like a fun project. Did not imply cost effectiveness.

Not your Grandpas game anymore.
:D
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

John

TonyPR
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 1293
Joined: December 14th, 2014, 3:08 am
Preferred Company: Radical
Location: San Juan, PR

Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?

Post by TonyPR » September 8th, 2018, 4:23 pm

Eric, I noticed something in the seminar video I haven’t heard before. Mo recomends 5.75-6.5 pin to paps on asymmetricals for no thumbers. I am going to email him a couple of questions regarding no thumb drillings and report back.

gunso
Member
Member
Posts: 291
Joined: April 4th, 2015, 11:47 pm
Location: Iceland

Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?

Post by gunso » September 8th, 2018, 5:36 pm

TonyPR wrote:Eric, I noticed something in the seminar video I haven’t heard before. Mo recomends 5.75-6.5 pin to paps on asymmetricals for no thumbers. I am going to email him a couple of questions regarding no thumb drillings and report back.
I noticed the same and am 99% sure he was talking about the psa to pap distance and not the pin to pap distance

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3588
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?

Post by EricHartwell » September 9th, 2018, 3:23 am

TonyPR wrote:Eric, I noticed something in the seminar video I haven’t heard before. Mo recomends 5.75-6.5 pin to paps on asymmetricals for no thumbers. I am going to email him a couple of questions regarding no thumb drillings and report back.
That kind of recommendation makes sense. It is about getting the ball to roll. Too many people are concerned about side to side. With someone that has a lot of revs And alot of speed who regularly has to loft the gutter hell yes put the pin out there to 6".
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

User avatar
imagonman
Member
Member
Posts: 125
Joined: January 21st, 2017, 5:18 pm
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Cleveland Ohio

Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?

Post by imagonman » September 9th, 2018, 6:37 am

EricHartwell wrote: There was nothing new in this video. Mo has been preaching the same information for 8 years via this site. Now it is more important because drillers can't fix a screw up with a balance hole. Surface is the only tuning method once you put holes in it.

Just wait the USBC might outlaw any balls that have been plugged. That's when the manufacturers will boost sales again in the future.

Gone are the days of buying a $100 dollar ball and utilizing a balance hole to make it react like a $200 ball.


Yeah, but there are a few that still don't quite 'get it' yet or maybe haven't heard it laid out all in one seminar.

gunso
Member
Member
Posts: 291
Joined: April 4th, 2015, 11:47 pm
Location: Iceland

Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?

Post by gunso » September 9th, 2018, 8:21 am

EricHartwell wrote: That kind of recommendation makes sense. It is about getting the ball to roll. Too many people are concerned about side to side. With someone that has a lot of revs And alot of speed who regularly has to loft the gutter hell yes put the pin out there to 6".
Mo has twice recommended how I drilled the Guru core with very differing axis tilt between years. both times the psa to pap distance is 6+ inches and the pin to pap distances were 2" and around 4.5"

He mostly seemed to worry about putting the cg in the ring finger under the old rules for no thumbers

User avatar
snick
BCU Graduate Layouts
BCU Graduate Layouts
Posts: 753
Joined: August 31st, 2014, 8:00 pm
THS Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 5.625" x 0
Speed: 17 off hand
Rev Rate: 360
Axis Tilt: 7
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Fix
Medium Oil Ball: Storm JoyRide
Light Oil Ball: Storm Tropical Breeze
Preferred Company: Storm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?

Post by snick » September 9th, 2018, 10:19 pm

IMO, the new rules will change nothing with regard to pattern transition, required volume, and bowler movement. the Coverstocks are the real issue.
ie: a Surelock with a strong layout, 500 surface, and no balance hole will probably pick up more oil than a hyroad with a 1.25"x4" balance hole.

On positive note, static weights are no longer an issue on asymms with offset CG, nor is pin-CG distance a real issue.

BTW, Mo's video proves that you can move a symm PSA ~10 degrees positive by simply drilling a large/deep balance hole then plugging it.
Also, it is technically possible to enhance the depth of an IT thumb with creative use of various bit sizes and a slug at the bottom to hold the molly.
Benchmark Bowling Pro Shop
Byron

RH
PAP: 5.625" x 0
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 7º

Bluelobstor
Member
Member
Posts: 53
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 2:29 am
THS Average: 208
Positive Axis Point: 6 1/4 over 0 up or down
Speed: 16.5 off hand
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: AMF XS Technology
Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox/AMF XS Technology
Light Oil Ball: Combat Tank
Preferred Company: All
Location: Kissimmee, Florida

Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?

Post by Bluelobstor » September 27th, 2018, 8:48 pm

EricHartwell wrote: That kind of recommendation makes sense. It is about getting the ball to roll. Too many people are concerned about side to side. With someone that has a lot of revs And alot of speed who regularly has to loft the gutter hell yes put the pin out there to 6".
Eric, I am a no thumber and had a Paradox drilled that had a pin to PAP in the 6" range that was unusable due to a loss of energy way too early because of my low tilt. Since redrilling with a 2" pin to PAP I can use the ball again and can stand around 20 board with right foot.

A 5.75-6.5" pin to PAP might be good for someone with higher tilt but not lower in my experience.

Jason
PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery

Locked