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 Post subject: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:46 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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I have a question for Mo and you guys. I pretty much understand all the dual angle system, except for one thing, the pin to PAP distances. I have yet to find a good definition/explanation that defines pin locations for various bowler specs. I have picked up bits and pieces here and there, but I cannot find any thing more than that. Example, what are the desired pin distance ranges for a speed dominant (18 mph off hand), lower rev bowler (270 revs), with low axis tilt (10 deg), and higher rotation (70 deg), for all the different dual angle layouts, AND the explanation behind choosing those particular pin to PAP distance ranges.

Thanks in advance for any info anyone can provide.

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Rob

RH Wiki Fit:
MF 4 7/16, 3/8 L, 1/8 R
RF 4 3/8, 1/2 R, 1/8 R
Thumb 1/4 Rev, 1/4 L
Axis Tilt 10 deg
Axis Rotation 70 deg
260 Revs
PAP 5 7/8 over 3/4 up
Speed 14.5 - 15.5 Monitor
House/Sport or PBA on rare occasion


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:41 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Let me clarify my question a little. I know that having the pin closer to the PAP aligns the low RG of the ball with the PAP causing less flare and earlier roll. I know that having the pin at 3 3/8 from the PAP creates the greatest amount of flare. I know that having the pin away from the PAP aligns the PAP to the high RG of the ball causing later roll and less flare in symmetrical balls and asymmetrical balls with a weak PSA to PAP distance, and later roll and more flare on asymmetrical balls with a strong PSA to PAP distance. What I don't understand/comprehend is how those ranges are picked for varying types of bowler specs.

I am a high track, speed dominant bowler with low tilt and higher axis rotation, so what ranges would be good for me in both symmetrical and asymmetrical balls, and more importantly, why?

Thanks again for any help.

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Rob

RH Wiki Fit:
MF 4 7/16, 3/8 L, 1/8 R
RF 4 3/8, 1/2 R, 1/8 R
Thumb 1/4 Rev, 1/4 L
Axis Tilt 10 deg
Axis Rotation 70 deg
260 Revs
PAP 5 7/8 over 3/4 up
Speed 14.5 - 15.5 Monitor
House/Sport or PBA on rare occasion


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:03 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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rocketman1964 wrote:
Let me clarify my question a little. I know that having the pin closer to the PAP aligns the low RG of the ball with the PAP causing less flare and earlier roll. I know that having the pin at 3 3/8 from the PAP creates the greatest amount of flare. I know that having the pin away from the PAP aligns the PAP to the high RG of the ball causing later roll and less flare in symmetrical balls and asymmetrical balls with a weak PSA to PAP distance, and later roll and more flare on asymmetrical balls with a strong PSA to PAP distance. What I don't understand/comprehend is how those ranges are picked for varying types of bowler specs.

I am a high track, speed dominant bowler with low tilt and higher axis rotation, so what ranges would be good for me in both symmetrical and asymmetrical balls, and more importantly, why?

Thanks again for any help.
_________________
Rob

RH Wiki Fit:
MF 4 7/16, 3/8 L, 1/8 R
RF 4 3/8, 1/2 R, 1/8 R
Thumb 1/4 Rev, 1/4 L
Axis Tilt 10 deg
Axis Rotation 70 deg
270 Revs
PAP 5 over 3/8 up
Speed 18 off hand
House/Sport or PBA on rare occasion

Short pin to PAP on a Symmetrical ball is different than on an Asymmetrical ball. While they both reduce flare and skid longer, the reaction in the hook zone is quite different. The Symmetrical is like you mentioned above, it rolls sooner, quicker from hook to roll similar to Long pin to PAP's on Asymmetricals. The Asymmetrical will retain its tilt and rotation creating a longer hook zone rolling later. This is difficult to explain. It is because of the Gyroscopic affects making the ball retain its axis'.

Your explanation for longer pin to PAP's was accurate Until you said that they create later roll for Asymmetricals. That is not true. Longer Pin to PAP's on Asymmetrcals will create forward roll sooner.

3 3/8" pin to PAP creates the greatest amount of flare on an Un-drilled ball. Nobody rolls Un-drilled balls. Once you drill holes in a ball everything changes. Especially if there is a balance hole involved.
When figuring layouts and looking for Max flare, a 4" pin to PAP is used. This is because the low Rg axis ( represented by the Pin prior to drilling) will move away from a drilled hole. Conversely the PSA (mass Bias) will move towards a drilled hole.
Track flare is also affected by the position of the PSA. Closer to the PAP, smaller drilling angles, will produce more flare. Further from the PAP, larger drilling angles will create less flare as you mentioned above.

The easiest way for me to explain your range of Pin to PAP's is to figure out the Basic arsenals and explain from there.

Sweetspot 90* totals 1.5:1 Ratio
Asymmetrical layouts ...
Totally Strong ............. 45-4.5-25
Midlane ...................... 35-4.25-35
Benchmark ................. 55-4-35
Long and Strong ......... 75-4-35
Control ..................... 55-3.5-55
Low flare ................... 75-2.5-35

Symmetrical layouts (drilling angle to Cg) ...
Totally Strong ............. Double thumb Layout
Midlane ...................... 55-4-30 balance hole 1.5" below midline on the VAL
Benchmark ................. 60-4-30
Long and Strong ......... 75-4.25-35
Control ..................... 60-4.5-55 balance hole 1.5" below midline on the VAL, pin in ring finger
Low flare ................... 75-5-30

I always start with the Asymmetrical layouts and transpose them for the Symmetrical layouts.
Generally speaking low tilt gets shorter pin to PAP. Base line is 4".
High Rotation gets longer Pin to PAP's.
Speed dominant gets longer Pin to PAP's
I give the tilt the most influence in this decision.
While 10* tilt is low it is not extreme
70* rotation is high but again not extreme.
Your speed dominance is also not extreme.
I put your Benchmark pin to PAP at 4"

The Basic arsenal is not a complete range of the Pin to PAP's for you. It does represent a Basic range for you. I am referring to Asymmetrical layouts that would be utilized in extreme conditions like Sport and Tournaments. These would push the Asymmetrical range to 5".

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:09 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Thanks Eric. I have to read this and process it. If I have any further questions, I will get back with you.

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Rob

RH Wiki Fit:
MF 4 7/16, 3/8 L, 1/8 R
RF 4 3/8, 1/2 R, 1/8 R
Thumb 1/4 Rev, 1/4 L
Axis Tilt 10 deg
Axis Rotation 70 deg
260 Revs
PAP 5 7/8 over 3/4 up
Speed 14.5 - 15.5 Monitor
House/Sport or PBA on rare occasion


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:26 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Short pin to PAP on a Symmetrical ball is different than on an Asymmetrical ball. While they both reduce flare and skid longer, the reaction in the hook zone is quite different. The Symmetrical is like you mentioned above, it rolls sooner, quicker from hook to roll similar to Long pin to PAP's on Asymmetricals. The Asymmetrical will retain its tilt and rotation creating a longer hook zone rolling later. This is difficult to explain. It is because of the Gyroscopic affects making the ball retain its axis'.

Your explanation for longer pin to PAP's was accurate Until you said that they create later roll for Asymmetricals. That is not true. Longer Pin to PAP's on Asymmetrcals will create forward roll sooner.

3 3/8" pin to PAP creates the greatest amount of flare on an Un-drilled ball. Nobody rolls Un-drilled balls. Once you drill holes in a ball everything changes. Especially if there is a balance hole involved.
When figuring layouts and looking for Max flare, a 4" pin to PAP is used. This is because the low Rg axis ( represented by the Pin prior to drilling) will move away from a drilled hole. Conversely the PSA (mass Bias) will move towards a drilled hole.
Track flare is also affected by the position of the PSA. Closer to the PAP, smaller drilling angles, will produce more flare. Further from the PAP, larger drilling angles will create less flare as you mentioned above.

The easiest way for me to explain your range of Pin to PAP's is to figure out the Basic arsenals and explain from there.

Sweetspot 90* totals 1.5:1 Ratio
Asymmetrical layouts ...
Totally Strong ............. 45-4.5-25
Midlane ...................... 35-4.25-35
Benchmark ................. 55-4-35
Long and Strong ......... 75-4-35
Control ..................... 55-3.5-55
Low flare ................... 75-2.5-35

Symmetrical layouts (drilling angle to Cg) ...
Totally Strong ............. Double thumb Layout
Midlane ...................... 55-4-30 balance hole 1.5" below midline on the VAL
Benchmark ................. 60-4-30
Long and Strong ......... 75-4.25-35
Control ..................... 60-4.5-55 balance hole 1.5" below midline on the VAL, pin in ring finger
Low flare ................... 75-5-30

I always start with the Asymmetrical layouts and transpose them for the Symmetrical layouts.
Generally speaking low tilt gets shorter pin to PAP. Base line is 4".
High Rotation gets longer Pin to PAP's.
Speed dominant gets longer Pin to PAP's
I give the tilt the most influence in this decision.
While 10* tilt is low it is not extreme
70* rotation is high but again not extreme.
Your speed dominance is also not extreme.
I put your Benchmark pin to PAP at 4"

The Basic arsenal is not a complete range of the Pin to PAP's for you. It does represent a Basic range for you. I am referring to Asymmetrical layouts that would be utilized in extreme conditions like Sport and Tournaments. These would push the Asymmetrical range to 5".


What exactly are you transposing going from the asymmetrical to the symmetrical? I thought the sums and the ratios remained the same from asymmetrical to symmetrical for each of the layouts. Thanks.

_________________
Rob

RH Wiki Fit:
MF 4 7/16, 3/8 L, 1/8 R
RF 4 3/8, 1/2 R, 1/8 R
Thumb 1/4 Rev, 1/4 L
Axis Tilt 10 deg
Axis Rotation 70 deg
260 Revs
PAP 5 7/8 over 3/4 up
Speed 14.5 - 15.5 Monitor
House/Sport or PBA on rare occasion


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:48 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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rocketman1964 wrote:
What exactly are you transposing going from the asymmetrical to the symmetrical? I thought the sums and the ratios remained the same from asymmetrical to symmetrical for each of the layouts. Thanks.

That is the biggest problem, people think that they can take their favorite Symmetrical ball layout and put in on an Asymmetrical. Then they say Asyms don't work for them.

The Totals are the same, yes.
The Ratios are not the same and the Pin to PAP needs to be adjusted.
From the Asymmetrical layout the Drilling angle is raised by 5* and the VAL angle is lowered by 5* to get the Symmetrical equivalent.
This is not completely evident in the way I list the Basic arsenals because I give the Symmetrical drilling angles as measured to the Cg. I do this because quite often the Cg needs to be placed in a particular location to facilitate the use of a balance hole.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:55 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Great, thanks for all your help.

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RH Wiki Fit:
MF 4 7/16, 3/8 L, 1/8 R
RF 4 3/8, 1/2 R, 1/8 R
Thumb 1/4 Rev, 1/4 L
Axis Tilt 10 deg
Axis Rotation 70 deg
260 Revs
PAP 5 7/8 over 3/4 up
Speed 14.5 - 15.5 Monitor
House/Sport or PBA on rare occasion


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:44 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
That is the biggest problem, people think that they can take their favorite Symmetrical ball layout and put in on an Asymmetrical. Then they say Asyms don't work for them.

The Totals are the same, yes.
The Ratios are not the same and the Pin to PAP needs to be adjusted.
From the Asymmetrical layout the Drilling angle is raised by 5* and the VAL angle is lowered by 5* to get the Symmetrical equivalent.
This is not completely evident in the way I list the Basic arsenals because I give the Symmetrical drilling angles as measured to the Cg. I do this because quite often the Cg needs to be placed in a particular location to facilitate the use of a balance hole.


Eric,

I did a lot of video the last two days. It looks like my axis rotation is more like 75, than 70. Additionally the 18mph speed off my might be a little high (I added 2.5 mph to the lane speed monitor speed of 15.5mph). I have payed a lot more attention to the display the last couple of days, my speed varies from 14.5 to 15.5. It's 14.5 when hooking the lane more, and 15-15.5 when playing straighter. I also discovered that my PAP has changed a bit to 5 7/8 over, 3/4 up. Do any of these change the layouts you suggested?

Thanks again.

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Rob

RH Wiki Fit:
MF 4 7/16, 3/8 L, 1/8 R
RF 4 3/8, 1/2 R, 1/8 R
Thumb 1/4 Rev, 1/4 L
Axis Tilt 10 deg
Axis Rotation 70 deg
260 Revs
PAP 5 7/8 over 3/4 up
Speed 14.5 - 15.5 Monitor
House/Sport or PBA on rare occasion


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:46 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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rocketman1964 wrote:

Eric,

I did a lot of video the last two days. It looks like my axis rotation is more like 75, than 70. Additionally the 18mph speed off my might be a little high (I added 2.5 mph to the lane speed monitor speed of 15.5mph). I have payed a lot more attention to the display the last couple of days, my speed varies from 14.5 to 15.5. It's 14.5 when hooking the lane more, and 15-15.5 when playing straighter. Does any of this change the layouts you suggested? Thanks again.

The slightly higher rotation is offset the speed adjustment so no changes are necessary.
If you have taken video speed can be figured from that using the time it takes from release to the arrows. It would be more accurate than the monitors. I was bowling on a pair last night that were definitely reading slow. They were consistent but telling me I was only getting 11 mph at the camera. I am no speed demon but I know I roll the ball faster than that.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:55 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
The slightly higher rotation is offset the speed adjustment so no changes are necessary.
If you have taken video speed can be figured from that using the time it takes from release to the arrows. It would be more accurate than the monitors. I was bowling on a pair last night that were definitely reading slow. They were consistent but telling me I was only getting 11 mph at the camera. I am no speed demon but I know I roll the ball faster than that.


All the videos I have done have been down low so I could see the PAP/tilt/rotation, so I cannot see the arrows. Our speed monitors are pretty consistent lane to lane. Say we split the difference and call it 17.5 mph, would that change things at all?

By the way, I am going through all of this because I am about to drill two new balls, Radical Fix, and Radical Cyclops. Wanting to make sure all my numbers are correct before I punch them. Any suggestions on laying them out? I was thinking Benchmark for the Cyclops, and the Asymmetrical "C" layout for The Fix. Per the drill sheet, that is the same layout for the MoTion hole if I need it a bit for more in the backend.

Thanks.

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Rob

RH Wiki Fit:
MF 4 7/16, 3/8 L, 1/8 R
RF 4 3/8, 1/2 R, 1/8 R
Thumb 1/4 Rev, 1/4 L
Axis Tilt 10 deg
Axis Rotation 70 deg
260 Revs
PAP 5 7/8 over 3/4 up
Speed 14.5 - 15.5 Monitor
House/Sport or PBA on rare occasion


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:56 am Post Number: #11 Post
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rocketman1964 wrote:
By the way, I am going through all of this because I am about to drill two new balls, Radical Fix, and Radical Cyclops. Wanting to make sure all my numbers are correct before I punch them. Any suggestions on laying them out? I was thinking Benchmark for the Cyclops, and the Asymmetrical "C" layout for The Fix. Per the drill sheet, that is the same layout for the MoTion hole if I need it a bit for more in the backend.

What is your plan for the use of these 2 balls?

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Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:11 am Post Number: #12 Post
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I am not happy with any of the equipment I have at the moment. Everything was laid out off the wrong PAP, so none of it acts like it should. So I really want to start fresh with a benchmark ball, and something stronger so I can get in a little deeper, send it to the dry and get it to turn the corner. That's why I was thinking putting the benchmark in the Cyclops and the Asym C drilling per the Fix drilling instructions.

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Rob

RH Wiki Fit:
MF 4 7/16, 3/8 L, 1/8 R
RF 4 3/8, 1/2 R, 1/8 R
Thumb 1/4 Rev, 1/4 L
Axis Tilt 10 deg
Axis Rotation 70 deg
260 Revs
PAP 5 7/8 over 3/4 up
Speed 14.5 - 15.5 Monitor
House/Sport or PBA on rare occasion


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:33 am Post Number: #13 Post
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My opinion is based of the marketing.
I would be looking at the Benchmark on the Fix with the option of a P3 balance hole for the fresh to break down the line and set the Cyclops up with the Motion Hole optionto be the one to move in deeper.

The Cyclops is going to be much cleaner in the front with a more defined breakpoint on the backend.
Cut and pasted from the Radical Cyclops page...

"The Cyclops features our new spindle core. This core design matched with our newest flip cover adds a new dimension to the EZ-Use line. We have never had a ball with this much backend at this price point in the Radical line. The Cyclops like our other big backend balls clears the fronts and makes one big head turning move off the spot. The Cyclops is ideal on light to medium lane conditions and is the perfect ball for a wide array of lane conditions a novice or experienced bowler will see."

Have you already purchased these balls?

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:39 am Post Number: #14 Post
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Yes I have.

Cyclops
15 lb 4 oz
3-4 inch pin
2.7 oz top

Fix
15 lb 3 oz
2-3 inch pin
2.9 oz top

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Rob

RH Wiki Fit:
MF 4 7/16, 3/8 L, 1/8 R
RF 4 3/8, 1/2 R, 1/8 R
Thumb 1/4 Rev, 1/4 L
Axis Tilt 10 deg
Axis Rotation 70 deg
260 Revs
PAP 5 7/8 over 3/4 up
Speed 14.5 - 15.5 Monitor
House/Sport or PBA on rare occasion


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:51 am Post Number: #15 Post
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Layout C is going to be difficult to set up a motion hole with a shorter pin to Cg.

I am hoping MegaMav is going to chime in with his intimate knowledge of the Radical line.

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Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:55 am Post Number: #16 Post
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I like your idea of putting the MoTion hole in the Cyclops, and finding a benchmark layout for the fix.

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Rob

RH Wiki Fit:
MF 4 7/16, 3/8 L, 1/8 R
RF 4 3/8, 1/2 R, 1/8 R
Thumb 1/4 Rev, 1/4 L
Axis Tilt 10 deg
Axis Rotation 70 deg
260 Revs
PAP 5 7/8 over 3/4 up
Speed 14.5 - 15.5 Monitor
House/Sport or PBA on rare occasion


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:27 am Post Number: #17 Post
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rocketman1964 wrote:
I like your idea of putting the MoTion hole in the Cyclops, and finding a benchmark layout for the fix.

You are going to want to roll the Cyclops before putting the Motion hole, you may not need or want it.

For the Fix you could do something like (drilling angle to Cg) 80-4-45 balance hole 1.5" below the midline on the VAL

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Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:35 am Post Number: #18 Post
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I will definitely throw the Cyclops before I put the hole in it. Appreciate all of your help.

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Rob

RH Wiki Fit:
MF 4 7/16, 3/8 L, 1/8 R
RF 4 3/8, 1/2 R, 1/8 R
Thumb 1/4 Rev, 1/4 L
Axis Tilt 10 deg
Axis Rotation 70 deg
260 Revs
PAP 5 7/8 over 3/4 up
Speed 14.5 - 15.5 Monitor
House/Sport or PBA on rare occasion


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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:40 am Post Number: #19 Post
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Cyclops: 80 x 5.5 x 45
Fix: Asym F - drill the fingers 3.5" deep, adjust VAL to 40.

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 Post subject: Re: Pin to PAP distances
 Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:43 am Post Number: #20 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Cyclops: 80 x 5.5 x 45
Fix: Asym F - drill the fingers 3.5" deep.


Thanks MegaMav, really appreciate your help.

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RH Wiki Fit:
MF 4 7/16, 3/8 L, 1/8 R
RF 4 3/8, 1/2 R, 1/8 R
Thumb 1/4 Rev, 1/4 L
Axis Tilt 10 deg
Axis Rotation 70 deg
260 Revs
PAP 5 7/8 over 3/4 up
Speed 14.5 - 15.5 Monitor
House/Sport or PBA on rare occasion


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