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 Post subject: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:15 am Post Number: #1 Post
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I have a friend who bowls 2 handed with no thumb. When he puts his fingers in he kind of twist his hand on the ball. So his pap from the center of his fingers is 5 over and 2 up. Which makes all of his layout with the pin super high. But we've been discussing stuff and we were wondering if we should be using his midline and centerline based off of the twisting of his hand or just based on the 2 finger holes that are drilled. This would obviously effect his VAL so we were debating which would be correct. Hopefully the way I worded this makes sense.....


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 Post subject: Re: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:09 am Post Number: #2 Post
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This was discussed a while back:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13478

For laying out balls I would use a generic span be it 4", 4.5", 5" whatever he wants as long as he uses the same "span" for all his balls. Of course this would be an imaginary span as he doesn't insert his thumb. Take his PAP using this pseudo span for layout purposes only.

Use the center of bridge as the center of grip for static purposes (see thread referenced above).

Having such a high PAP up coordinates seems to me that if he had a thumbhole he would track between the fingers and the thumb. Is this assumption correct? If so, what is his axis tilt?


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 Post subject: Re: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:38 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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If I used a pseudo span for him his pap would probably be like 5 over and 5.5 up. We know it's cause he turns his hand on the ball after inserting his fingers in the ball. And yes he would track like a full roller if there was a traditional thumb hole. My biggest question is if we used a pseudo span should we also make the centerline follow where the base of his thumb lies on the ball instead of the centerline essentially being perpendicular to the finger holes. Then his pap would be a more traditional pap and I felt his VAL would be in a more logical position. Hard to really explain what I mean without drawing it on a ball....


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 Post subject: Re: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:45 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Understood and yes you could do that as long as you do the same on every ball. This would be like if he had a larg MF span and/or a very relaxed RF I asume.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:46 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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just use his bridge to measure layouts and pap. the pap dtays in the same spot anyway. the pin to pap distance would be the same. when drilling asyms the drilling angle will be the same and VAL angle doesn't mean a thing for no thumbers unless they put a balance hole in the exact same position every time (and why would you do that when you can pick and choose for every ball?)


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 Post subject: Re: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:36 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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Hello Gunso. Could you please explain why the VAL angle makes no difference for no thumb bowlers? The holes end up in a very different place if we layout using the center of bridge as center of grip, therefore they hit the core at a different spot. Just imagine we roll a ball that belongs to a thumb in player (only 3 holes and no balance hole) and we like the reaction. Lets imagine both players have the same PAP coordinate, only difference is the no thumber is taken from the bridge and the other is taken from the center of span. Layout happens to be for example 60 x 4.5 x 40 from span center, if you layout a ball with center of bridge using said layout, the pin will end up way up and the reaction won't be the same. You would need to call the same layout by two different names in dual angle.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13031


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 Post subject: Re: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:05 am Post Number: #7 Post
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Unless he is gonna drill the same ball with the same finger pitches and a thumbhole with the exact samt depth and pitches as well he will hit the core differently.

The after drilling numbers for the same ball will be vastly different for somebody with a small span and for a large span. even more so if another uses reverse in fingers and forward in thumb and the other uses forward in fingers and reverse in thumb.

Just drill the pin in a similiar spot and put the balance hole close to where the thumbhole would be where you wouldn't track over it and you will never notice the difference in reaction. Or just measure the layout on the original ball from the center of grip and duplicate it. You're really just complicating and limiting things when opting for a pseudo span


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 Post subject: Re: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:15 am Post Number: #8 Post
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Don't see why it would be limiting, you don't need to drill the third hole where the span would dictate it, having no thumb is great when drilling symmetrical balls because you can drill the third hole 6 3/4" from the pin along the drilling angle line drawn and set the PSA where you want it.

The problem when laying out a ball when using the bridge as center of bridge comes when following the layout recommendations in the Wiki. A 60 x ? x 30 recommended 2:1 Benchmark layout will not be the same with zero span, it will be similar for a bowler with 3 7/8 span to a bowler with 4 1/4 span to a bowler with 4 5/8 span but zero span will give you different numbers. For example a 55x4.25x55 for me when using a 4" pseudo span would be called 55x4.25x80 using the bridge center, both methods will put the pin in the ring finger but by name one would have a 1:1 ratio and the other would exceed VAL angle recommendations. Dual angle is like a language and in order to compare layouts the language should be the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:53 am Post Number: #9 Post
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No thumb layouts should look different from what we see with the traditional 3 hole grip with a thumb hole.
Imagine this, a no thumb layout center of grip between the fingers on the bridge. Now imagine a traditional grip over the top of the no thumb grip aligning the centers of grip. The fingers are approx. 2" above the no thumb fingers and the thumb is 2" below.
I was able to create a visual but I was limited in what I could put for the no thumb layout to using only one hole for it. This is how you need to look at comparing the different grips. I also have it so the PAP measurements are the same when in actually they would be different. The track is shown for a bowler with 12* of tilt.

I wanted to put this out there as food for thought.


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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
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16 mph off hand


Last edited by EricHartwell on Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:38 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Keep in mind that Mo developed the dual angle layout guide before so many bowlers started bowling no-thumb. Later he developed a couple of specific layouts for no-thumbers, link below.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... Layout.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:47 am Post Number: #11 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
No thumb layouts should look different from what we see with the traditional 3 hole grip with a thumb hole.
Imagine this, a no thumb layout center of grip between the fingers on the bridge. Now imagine a traditional grip over the top of the no thumb grip aligning the centers of grip. The fingers are approx. 2" above the no thumb fingers and the thumb is 2" below.
I was able to create a visual but I was limited in what I could put for the no thumb layout to using only one hole for it. This is how you need to look at comparing the different grips. I also have it so the PAP measurements are the same when in actually they would be different. The track is shown for a bowler with 12* of tilt.

I wanted to put this out there as food for thought.



Eric. What software you use to draw the layout?

From the discussion here, I got an impression that no thumb layout is a separate system from DA layout, isn't it?

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Axis tilt: 15*
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 Post subject: Re: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:56 am Post Number: #12 Post
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JohnP wrote:
Keep in mind that Mo developed the dual angle layout guide before so many bowlers started bowling no-thumb. Later he developed a couple of specific layouts for no-thumbers, link below.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... Layout.pdf



The thing I never understood is why he doesn't use VAL angles in this method. Also, since they have no third hole drilling angles aren't an issue but if we were to drill an asymmetrical ball with this method they would surely come into play.

If I were to drill a ball with a 5" pin to pap and the pin ended up way up above my fingers (very small VAL angle) I run the danger of making the ball too flippy, if I were to place the pin way under my finger holes (very large VAL angle) I run the risk of tracking over the middle finger.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:11 am Post Number: #13 Post
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ads wrote:
Eric. What software you use to draw the layout?

From the discussion here, I got an impression that no thumb layout is a separate system from DA layout, isn't it?

I use the drillsheet data base, an excel spreadsheet developed by one of our members. I was lucky enough to get a copy prior to the final version that was put as a paid for app.

The dual angle system can be utilized for the no thumbers. As you can see the gripping holes are not taking mass from the same exact locations from the core between the 2 different grips so there is some thought process needed for the difference in mass removal. Putting the dual angle numbers to them gives a reference point for making adjustments.

Mo's instructions are for layouts that do not need balance holes. They are simplified and by no means the only way to layout balls for no-thumbers. I believe this method is more about an easy way of getting the static weights to be legal. There is less emphasis on what the reaction is or how to adjust or fine tune these layouts.

Part of me wants to take up the no-thumb style if for anything to drill up balls to see first hand how the reactions compare to the standard 3 hole grip as well as how they spin up on the DeTerminator.
I just can't afford to drill up a bunch of balls for this purpose alone.
I've tried the no-thumb styles, one handed and 2 handed, neither of which worked out with any success for me.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
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16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:39 am Post Number: #14 Post
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Asked by 2 young no thumb players

1. Other than the 2 finger holes and when static weight is correct, do they need a thumb hole? Their proshop insisted that a thumb hole is necessary. I remember Mo's no thumb layout does not have thumb hole. And I assume, to a no thumb player, the thumb hole is regarded as balance hole. And balance hole is optional (if static weight is right). Any USBC rules talk about this?

2. Ironically, the proshop plugged the thumb hole of 1 spare ball with a thumb slug instead of plug. Is this legal?

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PAP: 5 5/8 up 3/4
Speed: 14 mph off hand
Rev: 300 RPM
Axis tilt: 15*
Axis rotation: 60*


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 Post subject: Re: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:45 am Post Number: #15 Post
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ads wrote:
Asked by 2 young no thumb players

1. Other than the 2 finger holes and when static weight is correct, do they need a thumb hole? Their proshop insisted that a thumb hole is necessary. I remember Mo's no thumb layout does not have thumb hole. And I assume, to a no thumb player, the thumb hole is regarded as balance hole. And balance hole is optional (if static weight is right). Any USBC rules talk about this?

2. Ironically, the proshop plugged the thumb hole of 1 spare ball with a thumb slug instead of plug. Is this legal?

Taken from page #87 from the rules paragraph #6

item #B
One hole for balance purposes, not to exceed 1¼ inch in diameter is permitted. (Slugs and
bowling tape will be allowed in balance holes, however interchangeable devices are
not allowed).

item #D:
Is a bowling ball thrown by a no-thumb or two-handed bowler who uses no thumb
illegal?
No. If a bowler doesn't use their thumb during a delivery, they can either have a thumb hole
or a balance hole but not both. If the ball has a thumb hole but the bowler doesn't use it, then
as long as it meets static balance requirements, the ball is allowed. If the ball has both a thumb
hole and a balance hole, the bowler needs to plug at least one of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:43 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
Taken from page #87 from the rules paragraph #6

item #B
One hole for balance purposes, not to exceed 1¼ inch in diameter is permitted. (Slugs and
bowling tape will be allowed in balance holes
, however interchangeable devices are
not allowed).

item #D:
Is a bowling ball thrown by a no-thumb or two-handed bowler who uses no thumb
illegal?
No. If a bowler doesn't use their thumb during a delivery, they can either have a thumb hole
or a balance hole but not both. If the ball has a thumb hole but the bowler doesn't use it, then
as long as it meets static balance requirements, the ball is allowed. If the ball has both a thumb
hole and a balance hole, the bowler needs to plug at least one of them.


Thanks.

In page 88, it said, "Ball plugs or slugs may be used for the purpose of re-drilling a ball. When a slug is used, there must be a hole drilled completely through the slug leaving no void at the base. "

Does it mean that a slug can't be used to plug a hole only, it must be drilled?

Also, are there approved materials for ball plugging?

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PAP: 5 5/8 up 3/4
Speed: 14 mph off hand
Rev: 300 RPM
Axis tilt: 15*
Axis rotation: 60*


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 Post subject: Re: Question about no thumb bowler
 Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:40 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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That's correct, a slug cannot be used instead of a plug. I suppose you could use a slug and then drill a 1/8" hole through it to satisfy the rule. As I recall, that rule was put in place because some bowlers were putting mercury in the void below the slug. -- JohnP

Edit: From P. 10 of the Equipment Specifications Manual

Plugs and Designs

1. Ball plug or slugs may be used for the purpose of re-drilling a ball. When a slug is used, there must be a hole drilled completely through the slug leaving no void at the base.
2. In all cases, there shall be no interior voids.
3. Plugs and designs must be made of material similar to, although not exactly the same as, the original material out of which the ball was made. Plugs and designs must comply with other specifications of a bowling ball.
4. No foreign material may be placed on the outer surface of the ball or in the balance hole, including but not limited to paint, marker or whiteout. Bowling tape is acceptable in a balance hole.
5. Density may not exceed 1.5 g/mL.


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