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 Post subject: Rico layout
 Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:43 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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How do you feel about a Rico layout Mo?? It's something that is becoming more and more popular even though its been around for years. I know that you say to use a maximum of 70 degree VAL angle and a Rico for most people is going to be around 90 degrees. Is it drilling you stay away from because of this? Or just something that would only be used in extreme conditions?


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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:13 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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tdub36tjt wrote:
How do you feel about a Rico layout Mo?? It's something that is becoming more and more popular even though its been around for years. I know that you say to use a maximum of 70 degree VAL angle and a Rico for most people is going to be around 90 degrees. Is it drilling you stay away from because of this? Or just something that would only be used in extreme conditions?


Looks like you're anticipating my answer. Becuase of all the reasons you listed and the CAD results on the layout. I'M NOT A FAN OF RICO DRILLINGS! There are better ways to accomplish the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:22 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Exactly what I expected you to say!! What kind of dual angle layout would you recommend to accomplish the same thing??


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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:35 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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tdub36tjt wrote:
Exactly what I expected you to say!! What kind of dual angle layout would you recommend to accomplish the same thing??


Rico's are vague depending on PAPs, but my suggestion is 15 / 5 / 50 with a P4 hole for symmetricals. I wouldn't do it on an asym. because regular "Dual Angle" layouts are so precise and accurate for asyms.


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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:59 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Ok, thanks for clearing it up. Wasn't really planning on doing one for myself just got to thinking about it and had to ask!!


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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:46 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
tdub36tjt wrote:
Exactly what I expected you to say!! What kind of dual angle layout would you recommend to accomplish the same thing??


Rico's are vague depending on PAPs, but my suggestion is 15 / 5 / 50 with a P4 hole for symmetricals. I wouldn't do it on an asym. because regular "Dual Angle" layouts are so precise and accurate for asyms.


If you know... is there a particular PAP that would be best for this type of layout? Also... are there other bowler characteristics (speed/rotation/tilt) or lane conditions (light/heavy oil) that need to be met in order for this layout to be somewhat useful?

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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:10 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Triplicate wrote:
Mo Pinel wrote:
tdub36tjt wrote:
Exactly what I expected you to say!! What kind of dual angle layout would you recommend to accomplish the same thing??


Rico's are vague depending on PAPs, but my suggestion is 15 / 5 / 50 with a P4 hole for symmetricals. I wouldn't do it on an asym. because regular "Dual Angle" layouts are so precise and accurate for asyms.


If you know... is there a particular PAP that would be best for this type of layout? Also... are there other bowler characteristics (speed/rotation/tilt) or lane conditions (light/heavy oil) that need to be met in order for this layout to be somewhat useful?


Like I said, I'm not a fan. YOU'LL HAVE TO ASK RICO. IT'S NAMED AFTER HIM.


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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:16 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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I have used the Rico pattern with success and my pap is 5.5" , I have also made adjustments to move the pin as close as 4" from my pap on different bowling balls which gives me a lot more aggressive look with the ball. It is a favorite pattern of mine when playing up the boards and moving into the middle of the lane. Not a pattern I like for trying to cover a lot of boards even when the lane allows it.

I liked it better back in the day when it was called the Team USA Pattern. The Sapphire Zone never rolled so good.

Can't wait to maybe try the 15 / 5 / 50 with a P4

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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:25 am Post Number: #9 Post
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kidlost2000 wrote:
I have used the Rico pattern with success and my pap is 5.5" , I have also made adjustments to move the pin as close as 4" from my pap on different bowling balls which gives me a lot more aggressive look with the ball. It is a favorite pattern of mine when playing up the boards and moving into the middle of the lane. Not a pattern I like for trying to cover a lot of boards even when the lane allows it.

I liked it better back in the day when it was called the Team USA Pattern. The Sapphire Zone never rolled so good.

Can't wait to maybe try the 15 / 5 / 50 with a P4


I've got one rico layout in a smash zone with the pin on the grip center line 1.25" above mid grip as recommended for high track players. This layout still misses my thumb but is much closer to my finger holes by over an inch or more than any other layout. It wants to turn left with good continuation on heavy oil but can be vary finicky since it does not work well on most oil patterns but when it matches up its very nice.

When I work it backward to a dual angle I get pretty wild numbers. They are 100x5x75. My benchmark for symmetrical is 70x3x20 so you can see how far this is for me. No wonder it matches up on very few patterns. I even have trouble finding the right surface to make it work. Very finicky indeed.

I agree with Mo just the same, it's my least favorite piece and I'll look to replace it with some yet to be determined Dual Angle layout down the road.

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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:43 am Post Number: #10 Post
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Triplicate wrote:
When I work it backward to a dual angle I get pretty wild numbers. They are 100x5x75.

If this is true, then I'm sorry to inform you, that you've layed out the ball incorrectly.
Rico is based on a 45* drill angle. Even if you used the high track modified, the drill angle remains 45*. The Val angle will change about 20* by moving the pin 1" up (for my pap).

Even if I go out on a limb, and assume you used a symmetrical ball, and used the thumb hole as the PSA for measurements, that's the only way I can get close to 100* drill angle, but it's completely ignoring the weight hole, required at 6 3/4 from the pin through the CG. In which case, if done correctly, the thumb hole will not be your PSA, it will be somewhere in the middle of the 2, based on what type of thumb system you use, and how thick/deep the weight hole is.

For my Rico experiment, I used a Mutant Cell, so my drill angle remains at 45* due to the strong asymmetric core and despite the crazy high VAL angle of over 100, this ball has quite the turn at the end. I'm not sure if it has to do with the 5" pin to pap distance, or just the strength of the intermediate diff, but it's a late strong turn for me on a THS, that forces me to play up the boards. It's not a benchmark layout for me, and I didn't drill it expecting miracles. It's simply a ball/layout I like to keep in my bag, for the nights when I'm really just struggling to line up with my more conventional equipment.

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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:05 am Post Number: #11 Post
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Adrenaline wrote:
Triplicate wrote:
When I work it backward to a dual angle I get pretty wild numbers. They are 100x5x75.

If this is true, then I'm sorry to inform you, that you've layed out the ball incorrectly.
Rico is based on a 45* drill angle. Even if you used the high track modified, the drill angle remains 45*. The Val angle will change about 20* by moving the pin 1" up (for my pap).

Even if I go out on a limb, and assume you used a symmetrical ball, and used the thumb hole as the PSA for measurements, that's the only way I can get close to 100* drill angle, but it's completely ignoring the weight hole, required at 6 3/4 from the pin through the CG. In which case, if done correctly, the thumb hole will not be your PSA, it will be somewhere in the middle of the 2, based on what type of thumb system you use, and how thick/deep the weight hole is.

For my Rico experiment, I used a Mutant Cell, so my drill angle remains at 45* due to the strong asymmetric core and despite the crazy high VAL angle of over 100, this ball has quite the turn at the end. I'm not sure if it has to do with the 5" pin to pap distance, or just the strength of the intermediate diff, but it's a late strong turn for me on a THS, that forces me to play up the boards. It's not a benchmark layout for me, and I didn't drill it expecting miracles. It's simply a ball/layout I like to keep in my bag, for the nights when I'm really just struggling to line up with my more conventional equipment.


Well said and thoroughly done and explained, but I expect this type of quality from you. You are using the layout exactly as it's intended, I believe, as an additional alternative to the more logical layouts. It does provide another choice when all else doesn't work. Everyone, please learn from this.


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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:10 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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A picture is worth a 1000 words :) I hope you can see everything. The cg is circled and on a line 45 deg. from the c/l on the grip out to the weight hole 6.75 away. I puzzled. I'd appreciate any comments on this.


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High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (1), 11 in a row (15)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (8)
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Is this helpful? Then Click the Image on the bottom right.


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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:51 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Triplicate wrote:
A picture is worth a 1000 words :) I hope you can see everything. The cg is circled and on a line 45 deg. from the c/l on the grip out to the weight hole 6.75 away. I puzzled. I'd appreciate any comments on this.


I like that. IT'S NOT A TRUE RICO, THOUGH! IN A TRUE RICO, THE PIN IS SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE CENTER OF THE GRIP! WHERE YOUR PART BELONGS, IF YOU WANT TO HELP IT OUT!


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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:51 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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I had a ball a friend gave me drilled RICO just to try it. It seemed to always under or over react. My impression is that it's for very specific conditions, like once in a blue moon, for me, so I gave it to another friend. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:08 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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jakester wrote:
I had a ball a friend gave me drilled RICO just to try it. It seemed to always under or over react. My impression is that it's for very specific conditions, like once in a blue moon, for me, so I gave it to another friend. :(


Please read post #11.


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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:06 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
Triplicate wrote:
A picture is worth a 1000 words :) I hope you can see everything. The cg is circled and on a line 45 deg. from the c/l on the grip out to the weight hole 6.75 away. I puzzled. I'd appreciate any comments on this.


I like that. IT'S NOT A TRUE RICO, THOUGH! IN A TRUE RICO, THE PIN IS SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE CENTER OF THE GRIP! WHERE YOUR PART BELONGS, IF YOU WANT TO HELP IT OUT!


Below, please find my notes on this topic, at the time I had it drilled....Sorry I don't have the video link references retained.


"The RICO layout is certainly creating a buzz. It has been used on Tour successfully this season including by Parker Bohn in his win in Spartanburg on the Viper pattern as well as in qualifying by Diandra Asbaty during her march to winning the Great Lakes Classic on the Cheetah pattern. Much discussion is appearing on the message boards, with various amounts of accuracy. So, with the goal of providing accurate information, I went directly to Ric Hamlin, the individual credited for the layout, to get details from him directly. Ric is the Consumer Products Specialist, for the Northwest region, Brunswick Bowling and Billiards. Here is an overview about the RICO layout including when to use the layout, how-to map the bowling ball, how-to alter the layout for a higher Track player. I also provide a summary of how the layout was first used and why. This is intended to present a more accurate overview of the RICO for those who want to have a better insight into this useful layout.

When to Use the RICO Layout?
The RICO is best used on more challenging patterns, longer and flatter. Ric Hamlin makes it clear that this layout has bailed-out many pro staffers on patterns such as the Masters and US Open. It is best for those who are speed dominant or have a lower rev rate. Specifically, the layout will get the ball to react sooner on the lane. These type of players tend to get too much length on these type of patterns. In addition, this is a good layout for players with a higher rev rate. For this type of player, the layout helps the ball to react sooner and smooth-out over/under ball reactions. Ric recommends that all tournament players have a ball with this layout in their bowling bag. It is very good to help bowlers get through transitions into the pattern breakdown. I tend to use the layout, as I mentioned above, on tougher patterns,”


1.
Pin in the palm. Generally, this will be in the center of the grip. So, for most bowlers, the PIN to PAP will fit in the range of 3 ½” to 5 1/2”

2.
When choosing a bowling ball, make an effort to obtain a ball with a pin distance (PIN to CG) that is close to half the distance of the ring finger span (Ric's recommendation and what he tries to do when using this layout). So use a 3" pin with top weight around 2.5 to 3 oz.

3.
The CG is placed at an angle 45 degrees from the PAP, through the grip center (for a RH bowler this in the 4:30 position)

4.
Place a weight hole, 6 ¾” from the grip center. The weight hole will approximately be 1 ¼” X 2 ½”

5.
In other words, the angle created from the PAP to grip center through CG to weight hole will be 45 degrees.


NOTE: The weight hole is extremely important in this layout. In a bowling ball with a symmetrical core, this will create more asymmetry since the weight hole is drilled into the core 90 degrees from the PIN, or 6 ¾”. So, it will increase the dynamics of the reaction. In a bowling ball with an asymmetrical core, the PSA/MB is placed at a 45 degrees from the grip center. The more asymmetrical the core is, the less a weight hole will have an impact on the motion. But, when adding a weight hole, the amount of asymmetry will be increased. Thus, this will increase the overall reaction of the ball.

Watch the ball reaction as Parker Bohn III throws it in South Carolina, on TV. Parker is throwing this on the Viper pattern (37 feet). Click here to launch the Youtube video In addition, Brad Angelo used this layout in the Finals of the Windy City Classic. This was bowled on the 44 foot Shark pattern. Click here to see this Youtube video. Notice the smooth ball motion from the oil to the dry.

Altering Pin Placement for Higher Track Player: For higher Track players, there is a greater chance of the ball hitting the middle finger. Although Parker Bohn (PAP of 5 3/4 over and 1/2 to 3/4 up) has no such issue when using this layout. To adjust, move the Pin up on the center line the amount, the distance, of the vertical PAP coordinate. This should raise the bowtie enough to miss the finger. This should alter the layout enough to avoid flaring over the middle finger. This is particularly important for those with a high lateral PAP (5 ½” and above ½” on the vertical). Moreover, to achieve a similar result, you can move the PIN closer to the PAP (more similar to leverage) or away from the PAP (to create more length).

How the RICO Layout Was Created (in Ric Hamlin’s own words)
“Although I [Ric Hamlin] have been given credit for it's so called design, how it all got started was a few years ago, Brunswick sponsored the Mini Eliminator in Las Vegas. I was part of the tournament support team. We would lay out all the balls, that were being used during the week of competition. At that time, the lane surface at the Orleans had become worn, thus making the lanes play a bit more on the difficult side, as well as a higher amount of conditioner on the lane to compensate for the worn surface. On top of that, the lane was Brunswick Pro Anvil, which is a lower friction surface and tends to create hang anyways. Knowing that this layout generally worked on tighter and/or longer patterns as well as for those that were either speed dominate, rev challenged or just needed reaction help, I used this layout quite a bit with very positive results. One of Brunswick's staffers, Nick Smith, was there and I used this layout for him. He was a higher rev player, but very speed dominate and he was impressed with the reaction, thus nicknaming the layout 'Rico' after me.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Successfully Used During the 2007-2008 PBA Season
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parker Bohn, Winner Spartanburg Classic, Viper Pattern

Diandra Asbaty, Great Lakes Classic, Used in Qualifying"

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High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (1), 11 in a row (15)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (8)
HOF induction - 2 (1 Local and 1 Provincial)
Is this helpful? Then Click the Image on the bottom right.


Last edited by Triplicate on Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:55 am Post Number: #17 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
tdub36tjt wrote:
Exactly what I expected you to say!! What kind of dual angle layout would you recommend to accomplish the same thing??


Rico's are vague depending on PAPs, but my suggestion is 15 / 5 / 50 with a P4 hole for symmetricals. I wouldn't do it on an asym. because regular "Dual Angle" layouts are so precise and accurate for asyms.

I am guessing that layout on a symmetrical will end up being more even or like (70*to 50*) 5 50* if you had in between specs and a determinator?
I have in my notes where Paul gave what he would use instead of the rico for asymmetrical:
90* 2 1/4 70* rev dominant/low tilt
70* 2 1/2 50* balanced rev/ speed matched
40* 4 3/4 70* speed dom/high tilt


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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:39 am Post Number: #18 Post
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Anyone tried this layout and moved the weight hole closer to the thumb? Something like a P3 location.

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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:38 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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A Second question.....for now. My pap is 5.5" straight across. Is that a track player? (The ball does track close to the fingers and thumb)

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Rico layout
 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:06 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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kidlost2000 wrote:
A Second question.....for now. My pap is 5.5" straight across. Is that a track player? (The ball does track close to the fingers and thumb)

Thanks


The PAP is independent of the axis rotation and the tilt and the speed/revs balance, so it is no indicator of what type of player you are.


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