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 Post subject: Confused about a layout
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:48 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Hello,

Hope someone can explain this to me...because, I'm pretty confused.

I drilled up a Warrior Supreme over the summer (40 x 5 1/4 x 75) to use on a heavier Sport/Challenge condition. The ball works OK on this condition, but is an absolute beast on heavier house shots. So in my infinite wisdom, I decided to drill up a Katana with the same layout. My thought was I can mimic the motion, on a ball with a touch less shell (for when I had to ball down, or I was on a shot where there was less volume).

Well...the Katana rolls forward almost instantly (which is actually what I expected the Warrior to do), whereas the Warrior seems to hold its tilt a touch longer.

So I guess the basic question is why? The Warrior Supreme has a lower RG, higher Differential, and equal Intermediate Differential to the Katana (2.47/.057/.020 vs 2.503/.050/.020). I would have thought that the higher diff would encourage the ball to roll forward sooner.

If it may make a difference, my specs are:

375 RPM
18 MPH off hand
12* Axis Tilt
60* Axis Rotation
4 13/16 x 3/4 PAP

Thanks in Advance


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about a layout
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:10 am Post Number: #2 Post
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Could be a few different things or a combination of those:
1) Coverstock, the Katana according to what I read has a very strong coverstock, the low drilling angle could be causing it to have a short skid phase and is engaging the cover too early if that makes sense. Try a different surface like 800, 2000, 4000 and maybe polish on top of that to see how this delays the reaction.

2) Core shape, the Katana's core seems to be larger and more asymmetrical after you drill it, although the Warrior Supreme's cover is supposed to be more midlane, it's core is designed for a later reaction. If scuffing the cover doesn't do the trick you could try a low hole (p3 or p4) on the Warrior to inceease reaction.

Mo designs his balls to be versatile to drill and they test and measure the reactions with different layouts recommended in their drill sheets. Especially on big balls like the Katana I would go by the drill sheet recommendations.

Hope this helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about a layout
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:08 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Could be a few different things or a combination of those:
1) Coverstock, the Katana according to what I read has a very strong coverstock, the low drilling angle could be causing it to have a short skid phase and is engaging the cover too early if that makes sense. Try a different surface like 800, 2000, 4000 and maybe polish on top of that to see how this delays the reaction.

2) Core shape, the Katana's core seems to be larger and more asymmetrical after you drill it, although the Warrior Supreme's cover is supposed to be more midlane, it's core is designed for a later reaction. If scuffing the cover doesn't do the trick you could try a low hole (p3 or p4) on the Warrior to inceease reaction.

Mo designs his balls to be versatile to drill and they test and measure the reactions with different layouts recommended in their drill sheets. Especially on big balls like the Katana I would go by the drill sheet recommendations.

Hope this helps.


Hi Tony,

A couple of things. I can't put weight holes in either ball because I'll hit them. The Warrior flares clean around to my ring finger, and the Katana is pretty close to my VAL. In any case, I'm quite pleased with the reaction I get on house with the Warrior, so I don't want to change it.

My bigger concern was replicating the reaction.

If there is something with the shape of the Warrior's core that is delaying the forward roll, I just wanted to know which trait. And conversely, when I want that forward roll look on a stronger piece, what is it about the Katana that promotes it. I just don't want to drill up stuff on a crapshoot.

I hope this made sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about a layout
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:07 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12930

The Katana is supposed to be a more downlane angular reaction but because it is a big core, my hypothesis is that the 40* drilling angle is making it react sooner. You also used quite a large VAL angle and this may have caused the holes to hit the core in a place that makes it react this way. Note: I am not saying the large VAL will make the core read sooner, it's supposed to prolong the hook phase making it more controllable, what I am saying is that it may have this effect on the Katana's core.

You can always ask Mo through Facebook, he designed the Katana.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about a layout
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:35 am Post Number: #5 Post
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AJCZAR wrote:
Hello,

Hope someone can explain this to me...because, I'm pretty confused.

I drilled up a Warrior Supreme over the summer (40 x 5 1/4 x 75) to use on a heavier Sport/Challenge condition. The ball works OK on this condition, but is an absolute beast on heavier house shots. So in my infinite wisdom, I decided to drill up a Katana with the same layout. My thought was I can mimic the motion, on a ball with a touch less shell (for when I had to ball down, or I was on a shot where there was less volume).

Well...the Katana rolls forward almost instantly (which is actually what I expected the Warrior to do), whereas the Warrior seems to hold its tilt a touch longer.

So I guess the basic question is why? The Warrior Supreme has a lower RG, higher Differential, and equal Intermediate Differential to the Katana (2.47/.057/.020 vs 2.503/.050/.020). I would have thought that the higher diff would encourage the ball to roll forward sooner.

If it may make a difference, my specs are:

375 RPM
18 MPH off hand
12* Axis Tilt
60* Axis Rotation
4 13/16 x 3/4 PAP

Thanks in Advance

Two things come to mind with this discussion.

Coverstock:
You said something about the Katana being a touch less shell. It is a skid snap ball and a lot of that has to do with the coverstock. So on the back end depending on layout and Pin to PAP,it has more left to right movement or in your case it transitions to roll very quickly. The Warrior is an early midlane lane reading cover using up energy early on the lane so it has less left to right motion making it smoother/softer off the end of the pattern.

Differential Ratio:
Int diff/total diff

Katana undrilled .020/.050=.4
Warrior undrilled .020/.057=.35

The Katana has a higher Differential Ratio, more Asymmetric. The transition from hook to roll is quicker.

What this shows is that the higher differential doesn't make for more Asymmetry.

A dull finish on the Katana will make it roll more like the Warrior.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
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 Post subject: Re: Confused about a layout
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:41 am Post Number: #6 Post
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Your Katana rolls to early on the house shot or on the sport shot? Eric, won't dulling the surface make it even earlier.

You want the Katana to be the same motion as the Warrior when balling down to it on the house shot, correct?


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about a layout
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:18 am Post Number: #7 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Your Katana rolls to early on the house shot or on the sport shot? Eric, won't dulling the surface make it even earlier.

You want the Katana to be the same motion as the Warrior when balling down to it on the house shot, correct?

Yes dulling the surface will make the Katana earlier. I was just suggesting a way to make it more like the Warrior. The description of it rolling forward almost immediately leaves a bit to the imagination. I was thinking at the breakpoint it turns and rolls very quickly, skid snap reaction.
I have a couple of balls that are very skid snappy, hook to roll very fast because of coverstock dominance when shiny. I have found that playing these balls with a dull surface makes them much more usable.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about a layout
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:08 am Post Number: #8 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Yes dulling the surface will make the Katana earlier. I was just suggesting a way to make it more like the Warrior. The description of it rolling forward almost immediately leaves a bit to the imagination. I was thinking at the breakpoint it turns and rolls very quickly, skid snap reaction.
I have a couple of balls that are very skid snappy, hook to roll very fast because of coverstock dominance when shiny. I have found that playing these balls with a dull surface makes them much more usable.


What I was saying was that the Warrior seems to retain its tilt longer than the Katana. The Katana almost reacts like a high powered urethane.

I've tried it box and at 2000. The roll pattern is still the same. I'm not upset at the outcome, as I am sure that it will smooth out some of the challenge patterns I've bowled on (especially with the county Masters coming up next month). I was just more puzzled that two balls with identical layouts could roll so differently.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about a layout
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:05 am Post Number: #9 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Yes dulling the surface will make the Katana earlier. I was just suggesting a way to make it more like the Warrior. The description of it rolling forward almost immediately leaves a bit to the imagination. I was thinking at the breakpoint it turns and rolls very quickly, skid snap reaction.
I have a couple of balls that are very skid snappy, hook to roll very fast because of coverstock dominance when shiny. I have found that playing these balls with a dull surface makes them much more usable.


Now I am a bit confused Eric, my answer was based on thinking it was rolling earlier than expected as in front to back too early not as in skid snap hook to roll too fast.

AJCZAR, when you say "like a high powered urethane" you mean that the ball is reading early from front to back correct?


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about a layout
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:32 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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TonyPR wrote:

Now I am a bit confused Eric, my answer was based on thinking it was rolling earlier than expected as in front to back too early not as in skid snap hook to roll too fast.

AJCZAR, when you say "like a high powered urethane" you mean that the ball is reading early from front to back correct?


You are correct. It reads earlier and is much smoother than the Warrior.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about a layout
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:34 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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This would make for an interesting side by side comparison on the DeTerminator to find out what you really ended up with post drilling.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
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 Post subject: Re: Confused about a layout
 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:43 am Post Number: #12 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
This would make for an interesting side by side comparison on the DeTerminator to find out what you really ended up with post drilling.


I would also love to see how the spin time in the determinator for this ball compares to the manufacturer layouts' spin times.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about a layout
 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:16 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Next time I go to the shop, I'll check to see the actual layouts (the shop I go to has a deTerminator)...The Warrior (if I remember right) is post-drilling...the Katana, I'm certain, is not...

I have no idea how to check spin times, though. Is there a link that describes how?


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about a layout
 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:18 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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Your PSO who has the determinator will know. I bet the Katana with that layout and the reaction you describe will have a short/fast spin time.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about a layout
 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:10 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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AJCZAR wrote:
Next time I go to the shop, I'll check to see the actual layouts (the shop I go to has a deTerminator)...The Warrior (if I remember right) is post-drilling...the Katana, I'm certain, is not...

I have no idea how to check spin times, though. Is there a link that describes how?

Jayhawk's instruction manual

http://www.jayhawkbowling.com/DeTermina ... manual.pdf

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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