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 Post subject: Center of grip/ Dual angle help
 Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:49 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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For no thumb bowlers do you go up/down the VAL then trace over from that Mark to the bridge? When looking at the high track comprehensive suggested layout guides on radical's website, when I (5 1/4 over, 2 5/8 down) traced the 5 1/4 over then went 2 5/8 up to find the bridge my layout looked *close* to the picture. When I went up the VAL it and then over it looked completely different (mass bias way left, pin farther right). Which is the correct way to measure back from the pap? Also, what's a good layout for a low tilt two hander with around 450 RPMs with 17-18 mph (CATS specs)? What would be a good arsenal for them for sport and what would be good for house?


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 Post subject: Re: Center of grip/ Dual angle help
 Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:27 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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ineedhelp wrote:
For no thumb bowlers do you go up/down the VAL then trace over from that Mark to the bridge? When looking at the high track comprehensive suggested layout guides on radical's website, when I (5 1/4 over, 2 5/8 down) traced the 5 1/4 over then went 2 5/8 up to find the bridge my layout looked *close* to the picture. When I went up the VAL it and then over it looked completely different (mass bias way left, pin farther right). Which is the correct way to measure back from the pap? Also, what's a good layout for a low tilt two hander with around 450 RPMs with 17-18 mph (CATS specs)? What would be a good arsenal for them for sport and what would be good for house?
You should measure from the center of the bridge. That is where you weigh it for legality. Mo said somwhere that most of the no thumb bowlers he has measured were 6" over and either 1" up or 1" down the VAL. I have not found anyone who was up. every one that I know is really close to 1" over and 1" down. They also all have low tilt and come close to the middle finger and cross where they would hit a thumb-hole if they had one. If I need a balance hole where the thumb would be, I move it to the right about 1" so they can miss it. I also keep the pin above the line between the top of the ring finger hole and the PAP and try not to go more than 4 3/4" distance from pin to PAP. I keep Large angles (especially the Drilling Angle). I am pretty sure that is how I would lay out a ball for you also.


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 Post subject: Re: Center of grip/ Dual angle help
 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:14 am Post Number: #3 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
Mo said somwhere that most of the no thumb bowlers he has measured were 6" over and either 1" up or 1" down the VAL.


See the Radical No-Thumb Layouts sheet

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/2/2e/Radical_No-Thumb_Layout.pdf

Part that starts "we have found that there are two distinct PAP positions for no thumb bowlers................"

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 Post subject: Re: Center of grip/ Dual angle help
 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:13 am Post Number: #4 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
You should measure from the center of the bridge. That is where you weigh it for legality. Mo said somwhere that most of the no thumb bowlers he has measured were 6" over and either 1" up or 1" down the VAL. I have not found anyone who was up. every one that I know is really close to 1" over and 1" down. They also all have low tilt and come close to the middle finger and cross where they would hit a thumb-hole if they had one. If I need a balance hole where the thumb would be, I move it to the right about 1" so they can miss it. I also keep the pin above the line between the top of the ring finger hole and the PAP and try not to go more than 4 3/4" distance from pin to PAP. I keep Large angles (especially the Drilling Angle). I am pretty sure that is how I would lay out a ball for you also.



Hi, I don't think I explained my original post properly. My main question was; for someone with my pap (5 1/4 over and 2 5/8 down from the bridge) do you go from the pap then up 2 5/8 on the VAL, then 5 1/4 over?


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 Post subject: Re: Center of grip/ Dual angle help
 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:03 am Post Number: #5 Post
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ineedhelp wrote:


Hi, I don't think I explained my original post properly. My main question was; for someone with my pap (5 1/4 over and 2 5/8 down from the bridge) do you go from the pap then up 2 5/8 on the VAL, then 5 1/4 over?

Yes, from the PAP you measure the vertical component first then measure over to the center of the grip.

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 Post subject: Re: Center of grip/ Dual angle help
 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:41 am Post Number: #6 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Yes, from the PAP you measure the vertical component first then measure over to the center of the grip.



Thanks for the reply Eric. So for a no thumb bowler with a pap that is 5 1/4 over and 2 5/8 down from the bridge, a layout such as 65 x 5 x 70 would end up with the pin in the ring finger and the mass bias straight down from the bridge or around there? Also, would you recommend the layouts for high tracks from the "comprehensive layout guide" from radical? Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Center of grip/ Dual angle help
 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:13 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Hello ineedhelp, I am a no thumb two hander too. As you have found out, laying out a ball using the bridge center as your center of grip will end up placing the pin in very unusual places. I started a thread some time ago about this and my best solution was to have two PAPs, one from center of bridge and one (which will get you to the same place) using a 4" pseudo span for drawing your layouts. The trick here is to find balls with the shortest pin to cg you can find and to position the cg under the ring finger for static purposes unless you are planning for a strong balance hole (we only get one, thumb in players get two, the thumb hole and the balance hole). In those cases you will position the cg where you want to set your psa (if the ball is symmetrical) and then drill a hole in that line as deep and wide as you need (within legal limits of course) to meet statics and desired ball reaction. On longer pin to cg balls and/or pin down drilling you can drill through the cg marker if you need to.

Hope this make sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Center of grip/ Dual angle help
 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:06 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Hello ineedhelp, I am a no thumb two hander too. As you have found out, laying out a ball using the bridge center as your center of grip will end up placing the pin in very unusual places. I started a thread some time ago about this and my best solution was to have two PAPs, one from center of bridge and one (which will get you to the same place) using a 4" pseudo span for drawing your layouts. The trick here is to find balls with the shortest pin to cg you can find and to position the cg under the ring finger for static purposes unless you are planning for a strong balance hole (we only get one, thumb in players get two, the thumb hole and the balance hole). In those cases you will position the cg where you want to set your psa (if the ball is symmetrical) and then drill a hole in that line as deep and wide as you need (within legal limits of course) to meet statics and desired ball reaction. On longer pin to cg balls and/or pin down drilling you can drill through the cg marker if you need to.

Hope this make sense.



Hi Tony, I also have been looking for the shortest pins/and or lowest top weight balls. For your pseudo span do you end up just going across x amount from your pap as if you were, say, 5 over and 2 down... the result would simply be 5 over from your pap?


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 Post subject: Re: Center of grip/ Dual angle help
 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:43 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Pseudo span can be anything as long as you keep it the same for every ball and remember to use center of bridge for statics. I use 4" because that is my thumb in span.


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 Post subject: Re: Center of grip/ Dual angle help
 Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:13 am Post Number: #10 Post
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Some of the youngsters are trying 2-handed (no thumb) style. To locate their new PAPs, can we use their existing bowling balls drilled for one-handed style?

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 Post subject: Re: Center of grip/ Dual angle help
 Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:20 am Post Number: #11 Post
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I assume they're throwing the existing balls without using their thumbs. If so, the PAP should be fairly close to where it will be without the thumb hole. Certainly much better than a wild guess. Most drillers base the PAP location on a grip center located between the finger holes, on the center of the bridge. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Center of grip/ Dual angle help
 Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:42 am Post Number: #12 Post
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JohnP wrote:
I assume they're throwing the existing balls without using their thumbs. If so, the PAP should be fairly close to where it will be without the thumb hole. Certainly much better than a wild guess. Most drillers base the PAP location on a grip center located between the finger holes, on the center of the bridge. -- JohnP


Yes. Thank you.

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