Long pin distances in asymetric balls

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M4R10
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Long pin distances in asymetric balls

Post by M4R10 » October 17th, 2010, 7:43 pm

I see so many videos and ball reviews with people using long pins on asym balls. But according to the guide "Applying the Dual Angle System & Sweet Spot" in the wiki and what I see in recommendations in this forum long pins should be used mainly for high tilt players. I like to think that it is unlikely for the majority to have too high tilts? So many people out there might be using wrong pin distances...

My understanding of the flare chart is that longer pins on asyms provide more forward roll at the break point. I imagine this counterbalances the high tilt player's ball's tendency to snap too hard when finally encountering enough friction.

So I was left wondering which drawback in ball reaction I would get if I got my sums and ratios right but chose too long a pin?

According to my current understanding the result could be a loss of entry angle due to the more forward roll?

This would be forcing me to move right with my feet to use a more direct line to my breakpoint. I would end up playing closer to the drier track area and a slight miss right would get the ball into friction too early (at least on THS) causing over reaction. Moving left to avoid this would cause my ball to not turn the corner enough but when I move the breakpoint in as well it might not be dry enough at the new breakpoint. So overall I would be left with less room for error right of my line and a ball that make adjustments a bit of a gamble.

Makes sense or not? I'm still a bit unsure if I really understand the different large flare types on asyms...

Thanks for your input,
Mario

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Re: Long pin distances in asymetric balls

Post by kellytehuna » October 17th, 2010, 8:02 pm

That's exactly the same conclusion I come to. If the ball starts rolling forward too soon, you run the risk of roll out, which greatly diminishes the balls hitting power at the pins. This makes sense because throwing a straight ball at the pocket generally doesn't carry well.

Mo has been saying for sometime now, that if you want to err, err on the side of too much hook. This is a concept I've been trying to really solidify in my head, because while it seems an obvious choice, my house is very over/under so too much hook means a mess, at least for me.

I think Mo tends to use 4.5" as the default pin for all high tilt bowlers for this very reason. It's easy to adjust the surface to get the ball to push a little further, because we have the option of polish as well. Getting the ball to hook more isn't quite as simple.
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Re: Long pin distances in asymetric balls

Post by Mo Pinel » October 17th, 2010, 8:38 pm

M4R10 wrote:I see so many videos and ball reviews with people using long pins on asym balls. But according to the guide "Applying the Dual Angle System & Sweet Spot" in the wiki and what I see in recommendations in this forum long pins should be used mainly for high tilt players. I like to think that it is unlikely for the majority to have too high tilts? So many people out there might be using wrong pin distances...

My understanding of the flare chart is that longer pins on asyms provide more forward roll at the break point. I imagine this counterbalances the high tilt player's ball's tendency to snap too hard when finally encountering enough friction.

So I was left wondering which drawback in ball reaction I would get if I got my sums and ratios right but chose too long a pin?

According to my current understanding the result could be a smaller entry angle due to the more forward roll? Yes, but it allows the bowler to play more direct, with feet and target more in line. On wet/dry THS patterns, the ball will roll more forward causing less over read of the dry.

Makes sense or not? I'm still a bit unsure if I really understand the different large flare types on asyms... Look at the text in the asym. flare chart.

Thanks for your input,
Mario
My comments are bolded in white. I removed the paragraph that troubled me.

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Re: Long pin distances in asymetric balls

Post by M4R10 » October 17th, 2010, 9:17 pm

Thanks, Mo!

I read the text in the chart. Was unsure if I understood it the way it was meant but now it's clear.

Would this (large flare with forward roll) be better on THS than a control layout (less flaring pin distance with larger angle sum and smaller ratio)?

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Re: Long pin distances in asymetric balls

Post by Mo Pinel » October 17th, 2010, 10:04 pm

M4R10 wrote:Thanks, Mo!

I read the text in the chart. Was unsure if I understood it the way it was meant but now it's clear.

Would this (large flare with forward roll) be better on THS than a control layout (less flaring pin distance with larger angle sum and smaller ratio)?
Depends on your tilt. High tilt players should use the long pin layout and the low tilt players should use the control layouts for asyms. for THS patterns.

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Re: Long pin distances in asymetric balls

Post by purduepaul » October 18th, 2010, 2:47 am

As an example:

Left handed bowler speed dominate (19mph, 300 rpm), 60 degrees of rotation, 33 degrees of tilt.....

He received a 20 x 4 3/4 x 45 P4 hole. The thought behind a layout like this is the 4 3/4 will make it lose tilt fast, and the 20 degree drilling angle to get it to roll really soon and the 45 will provide a smooth strong reaction and still enough hook zone to create good entry angle.
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M4R10
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Positive Axis Point: 5-1/8 over, 0 up
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Rev Rate: 390
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Axis Rotation: ~55
Heavy Oil Ball: AMF Mega Recovery, Layout 45* x 3-1/4 x 30*
Medium Oil Ball: Track 715C, Layout 75* x 2-1/8 x 60* P2 Hole
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick Slingshot, Layout 70* x 4-1/4 x 45* DT hole
Preferred Company: whatever fits my need
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: Long pin distances in asymetric balls

Post by M4R10 » October 18th, 2010, 5:54 pm

Thanks again, everyone.

The example made me finally recognize how a ball can flare much without much side roll. Was always puzzled by that but now it's clear that it takes much flare to loose the tilt even when rolling forward.

And it perfectly underlines Mo's explanation why higher tilts better use the longer pins and lower tilt players should use the control layout. The lower tilt player do not have to burn off a lot of tilt so they do not need the large flare with forward roll.

It really is amazing, how things become more clear on a daily basis since engaging in this forum.

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