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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:12 am Post Number: #21 Post
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Lledsmarttam wrote:
Unfortunately he has a symmetric ball already. What my plan is to talk to him again and see if he would be comfortable trying the performance fit recommendations and see what happens and if track is moved to a more desired location.

I am still trying to understand how any of these things can change the initial track? Unless I am wrong in my thinking I would thing the only way to change this would be delivery and hand positioning?
I have never tried a performance fit on a full roller, but I have my doubts also (without lessons or something drastic.


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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:22 pm Post Number: #22 Post
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Layout changes won't significantly change the first track ring, that's a function of the release. Layout changes can change the direction the flare moves. A performance fit can change the first track ring to a certain extent, but I also doubt that, in this case, it can be changed enough to eliminate hitting holes. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:29 pm Post Number: #23 Post
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JohnP wrote:
Layout changes won't significantly change the first track ring, that's a function of the release. Layout changes can change the direction the flare moves. A performance fit can change the first track ring to a certain extent, but I also doubt that, in this case, it can be changed enough to eliminate hitting holes. -- JohnP

I agree John, but balls can flare in the air. If you can get a very strong asymmetrical ball, it is possible to change the rings a little. The double thumbs on balls with very high M.B. #s would change the PAP about an inch. Usually the over-rolled full rollers that I have seen set the ball short, but I have seen it change the first ring off the middle finger. In this case though, your guess is good as mine.
Mo also said that with the over rolled layouts, all the rules still apply as regards to Drilling angle, Val angle/ pin distances/etc. ball is flaring in reverse so the bowtie could still be manipulated also. You would need to keep the bowtie around the fingers.


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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:12 pm Post Number: #24 Post
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You're certainly right, balls do flare in the air (see my old topic on that subject, link below). But the amount of flare in the air should be constant so that the first oil ring doesn't change. And Mo has also said that the PAP should be based on the first flare ring after the ball hits the lane surface. -- JohnP

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=174


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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:34 pm Post Number: #25 Post
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JohnP wrote:
You're certainly right, balls do flare in the air (see my old topic on that subject, link below). But the amount of flare in the air should be constant so that the first oil ring doesn't change. And Mo has also said that the PAP should be based on the first flare ring after the ball hits the lane surface. -- JohnP

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=174

That is the point. the amount of flare in the air is not constant. If it was, Mo would not use the PAP off a ball with similar dynamics as the one being drilled. If the PAP changes, so does the first oil ring. The armadillo proves this. That is why you base the PAP off the first oil ring on a ball similar to the one being drilled. If the first flare ring were constant, the PAP would also have to be constant.


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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:28 pm Post Number: #26 Post
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I was really thinking that the flare in the air should be constant for a given ball, but didn't state that. For a bowler that lofts to the arrows, like the pro's sometimes do, yes, several rotations will be made before the ball hits the lane surface. But for someone with more normal loft I doubt it's more than one revolution. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:42 pm Post Number: #27 Post
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Yes. As well as changing the bowtie with different layouts (as well as the distance from the first ring to the holes). Here is one example from Blueprint where he changed the Pin to PAP distance and did that using the bowler with the same tilt/same revs/same speed/ etc. Just changing the layout on the same ball. imagine what you could do by going to balls with huge differences in their dynamics and then adding balance holes:
Attachment:
Over-Rolled_Full_Roller_Examples.jpg

download/file.php?id=1656&mode=view

It appears to me that the PAP on the 6" pin to PAP now has a down vertical component and the 8" has a longer horizontal PAP measurement thus the flare rings not only changed distance they changed direction as well (in relationship to gripping holes). That is only one change in the layout which caused this.

I am guessing, but the cause would appear to be that a 6" pin to PAP is a low flare layout while the 8" pin to PAP is a higher flare layout on an asymmetrical ball.


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