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 Post subject: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:56 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Was just trying to find out if this is more common than I thought? The track actually rolls directly over the middle finger and to the right of thumb. Right hande bowler. Looks like negetive tilt possibly? Haven't done any measuring yet. Wanted input first.

Thanks in advance!

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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:22 am Post Number: #2 Post
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Special layouts to accommodate bowling styles like this really limit the ball reactions that can be achieved. At that point it is all about ball choice and cover prep. In this case there is nothing you can do layout wise to get the initial track off the gripping holes. You can get it flare the other way and position the bowtie to minimize the thumping over holes with a full roller layout.

I would encourage this bowler to change their style.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:05 am Post Number: #3 Post
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The bowler only is over the holes for first 4-5 revolutions. He is about 600rpm. He claims he has tried a full roller layout and says they don't work...but I have my doubts. His pap is 7.625 over 1.125 up.

I have never personally drilled for a full roller before either.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:06 am Post Number: #4 Post
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Does he use his thumb?

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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:54 am Post Number: #5 Post
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yes he does.
With a Motiv Tag he has he is getting over 7" of flare with a 5.5" pin to pap. About 95x5.5x40.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:03 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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I see you had wrote a question on another post but lets try to keep this in one place. If his track is starting out to the R.H. side of his ring finger and he is a R.H. bowler I would believe he is a over rolled full roller. Make sure the first track line is not over the fingers. Is this bowler a half-thumber? I don't know if you read the info in the wiki yet. There is a like to the topic on the wiki page also.
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Over_Rolled_Full_Roller
I have worked with 4 or 5 bowlers like this and we can make it work.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:52 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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No he is full thumb.
Track starts on middle finger but right of thumb.
Already read the wiki link on the over rolled full roller and no he doesn't quite fit in that category.
PAP is listed above in earlier post.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:58 am Post Number: #8 Post
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You can make a performance fitting so that he rises axis tilt a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:06 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Ok, performance fit. Can you explain what that would entail?

His fit
4 9/16" middle 4 9/16" ring span
Thumb 1/4" rev 1/8" right
Middle 1/16" rev 1/2" left
Ring 1/16" rev 1/2" right
Uses turbo oval finger grips

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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:51 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Special layouts to accommodate bowling styles like this really limit the ball reactions that can be achieved. At that point it is all about ball choice and cover prep. In this case there is nothing you can do layout wise to get the initial track off the gripping holes. You can get it flare the other way and position the bowtie to minimize the thumping over holes with a full roller layout.

I would encourage this bowler to change their style.




When you say flare the other way and position the bow tie you are referring to the full roller layout?

And yes I agreee. I have encouraged him for a couple of years to change his style but you know those younger people know everything!! Lol

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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:37 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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Yes that was referencing the full roller layout.

It's not just young people. People in general don't like change.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:46 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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Lledsmarttam wrote:
Ok, performance fit. Can you explain what that would entail?

His fit
4 9/16" middle 4 9/16" ring span
Thumb 1/4" rev 1/8" right
Middle 1/16" rev 1/2" left
Ring 1/16" rev 1/2" right
Uses turbo oval finger grips

Check out this post...

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10460

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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:58 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Check out this post...

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10460


So after looking at that post... which way would be best to go? Towards over rolled or to try to get track completely back on the left side of grip?

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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:56 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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Lledsmarttam wrote:

  So after looking at that post... which way would be best to go? Towards over rolled or to try to get track completely back on the left side of grip?


This bowler is Not Over-Rolled. If he were the track would be completely on the right side of the grip And have negative tilt. You have confirmed his PAP at 7-5/8" x 1-1/8". With the track through the middle finger that is about +5* of Tilt.

I would suggest trying to get the track off the gripping holes.

Lledsmarttam wrote:
His fit
4 9/16" middle 4 9/16" ring span
Thumb 1/4" rev 1/8" right
Middle 1/16" rev 1/2" left
Ring 1/16" rev 1/2" right
Uses turbo oval finger grips


I am by no means a fitting expert, but it does not look like the grip is drilled to the instructions in the Wiki. 1/2" left for the middle and 1/2" right for the ring seems very generic for a proper fit. Along with the fact that both the spans are exactly the same as well as the same reverse pitch in both fingers.

I have experimented with my own grip and had positive results with adding 1/4" left pitch to all 3 holes.
I suggest going through the fitting from scratch first.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:13 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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I agree with Eric, refit from the wiki first and have him work on cocking his hand more not cupping.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:37 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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Quote:
which way would be best to go? Towards over rolled or to try to get track completely back on the left side of grip?


The answer to this question is try to move the track completely back on the left side of the grip. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:24 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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I have seen over-rolled full rollers hitting holes until you give them an over-rolled layout. the PAP is in an over rolled full roller position. Mo says any PAP with a horizontal measurement greater than 6 3/4" is probably an over-rolled full roller and that usually the track is close to 7 1/2" over and 1" up.
viewtopic.php?t=6586

You might still try the performance fit, but you might study up on the layouts in case that doesn't satisfy him.


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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:13 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
I have seen over-rolled full rollers hitting holes until you give them an over-rolled layout. the PAP is in an over rolled full roller position. Mo says any PAP with a horizontal measurement greater than 6 3/4" is probably an over-rolled full roller and that usually the track is close to 7 1/2" over and 1" up.
viewtopic.php?t=6586

You might still try the performance fit, but you might study up on the layouts in case that doesn't satisfy him.


This persons pap is 7 5/8" over and 1 1/8 up so I would say fits in that category? He has always rolled over the holes regardless of the amount of people that try to help him change. He also had tried a regular full roller layout before and says they do not work for him. This will be my first time drilling for him and was just looking for some insight as I haven't come across this yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:10 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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Lledsmarttam wrote:

This persons pap is 7 5/8" over and 1 1/8 up so I would say fits in that category? He has always rolled over the holes regardless of the amount of people that try to help him change. He also had tried a regular full roller layout before and says they do not work for him. This will be my first time drilling for him and was just looking for some insight as I haven't come across this yet.

Personally, I would try an over-rolled full roller layout on an asymmetrical ball. I have a friend who went to the Brunswick booth with the same problem at nationals and they tried a symmetrical ball and it still hit holes so he went back and told the guy it didn't work and another guy there (he didn't get names) had him roll him a ball on the carpet and immediately layed out an over-rolled full roller layout on an asymmetrical ball. It worked very nicely. That might be worth trying (especially if he is not open to a lot of changes in his grip and his game).


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 Post subject: Re: Initial track over finger/thumb holes??
 Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:19 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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Unfortunately he has a symmetric ball already. What my plan is to talk to him again and see if he would be comfortable trying the performance fit recommendations and see what happens and if track is moved to a more desired location.

I am still trying to understand how any of these things can change the initial track? Unless I am wrong in my thinking I would thing the only way to change this would be delivery and hand positioning?

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