Board index » Mo & Friends » General Discussion


Forum rules


Ask Mo Pinel and the bowling industry's best your questions, and get straight answers.
This forum is moderated exclusively by Mo & Friends.



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Rico Sidebar
 Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:32 am Post Number: #1 Post
Online
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2007
Posts: 3856
Location: Malta, NY
Reputation: 853
Reputation Power: 9
This seems to be another one to add to his greatest hits.
Rico layout is an utter failure, it isnt flare safe for a majority that try it, and it doesnt hit because it doesnt stop hooking early enough for most players on most conditions.

Everyone thinks they're inventing the next greatest thing in bowling.
Its too bad majority of them are gimmicks and set us back.

_________________
Please press the Image button if you feel I've been helpful.

“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Span & Pitches: Is Length of Arm a factor?
 Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:49 pm Post Number: #2 Post
Offline
Pro Shop
User avatar

Joined: January 19, 2010
Posts: 222
Location: Southern Maryland
Reputation: 42
Reputation Power: 1
MegaMav wrote:
This seems to be another one to add to his greatest hits.
Rico layout is an utter failure, it isnt flare safe for a majority that try it, and it doesnt hit because it doesnt stop hooking early enough for most players on most conditions.

Everyone thinks they're inventing the next greatest thing in bowling.
Its too bad majority of them are gimmicks and set us back.


How can something be an utter failure if there are pros that still to this day, and one just recently called it one of her favorite layouts? I think Parker and Barnes have won with this layout on tour. I know Mo didn't like the layout, saying its "someone named in Mexico" but to call it an utter failure is quite harsh.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Span & Pitches: Is Length of Arm a factor?
 Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:48 pm Post Number: #3 Post
Online
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2007
Posts: 3856
Location: Malta, NY
Reputation: 853
Reputation Power: 9
MeNoRevs wrote:
How can something be an utter failure if there are pros that still to this day, and one just recently called it one of her favorite layouts? I think Parker and Barnes have won with this layout on tour. I know Mo didn't like the layout, saying its "someone named in Mexico" but to call it an utter failure is quite harsh.


I have yet to see it hit and carry for anyone.
Show me where Parker and/or Barnes has won with it on tour.
There are other low flare layouts that can be used that are more flare safe and finish their hook zone more consistently.

Im not being harsh, im being honest in my assessment of it.
It seems to garner more interest from the cute name than the actual results it gets.
I've yet to meet anyone that swears by it.
I just saw someone locally use one on a Cash and proceeded to bounce it off the pocket more times than not in matchplay to lose. It just doesnt hit.

_________________
Please press the Image button if you feel I've been helpful.

“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Span & Pitches: Is Length of Arm a factor?
 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:44 pm Post Number: #4 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: October 22, 2010
Posts: 499
Location: Cleveland, OH
Reputation: 51
Reputation Power: 1
MegaMav wrote:

I have yet to see it hit and carry for anyone.
Show me where Parker and/or Barnes has won with it on tour.
There are other low flare layouts that can be used that are more flare safe and finish their hook zone more consistently.

Im not being harsh, im being honest in my assessment of it.
It seems to garner more interest from the cute name than the actual results it gets.
I've yet to meet anyone that swears by it.
I just saw someone locally use one on a Cash and proceeded to bounce it off the pocket more times than not in matchplay to lose. It just doesnt hit.



Parker won the 2008 Spartanburg Classic with it.

I've never tried a Rico drill or really had any interest in it. That said, it's hard to call it a failure when it's been around for 15 years. I don't think anyone anywhere "swears by it". Swearing by it is not the point, even Ric calls it a just tool in the toolbox to have when he posts on other forums. Is there a layout you swear by?

The Rico layout creates a very long hook zone for anyone I've ever seen throw it. Saying it's an utter failure because it doesn't hit for many is like saying Double Thumb is an utter failure because it hooks out for many. Both layouts do what they're supposed to do, even if you don't particularly like the resulting hook shape.

_________________
PAP- 4 1/8 over, 3/4 up
Speed - 17-18 monitor
Rev Rate - 475
Rotation - 65
Tilt - 12


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Span & Pitches: Is Length of Arm a factor?
 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:38 pm Post Number: #5 Post
Offline
Pro Shop
User avatar

Joined: January 19, 2010
Posts: 222
Location: Southern Maryland
Reputation: 42
Reputation Power: 1
Bahshay wrote:


Parker won the 2008 Spartanburg Classic with it.

I've never tried a Rico drill or really had any interest in it. That said, it's hard to call it a failure when it's been around for 15 years. I don't think anyone anywhere "swears by it". Swearing by it is not the point, even Ric calls it a just tool in the toolbox to have when he posts on other forums. Is there a layout you swear by?

The Rico layout creates a very long hook zone for anyone I've ever seen throw it. Saying it's an utter failure because it doesn't hit for many is like saying Double Thumb is an utter failure because it hooks out for many. Both layouts do what they're supposed to do, even if you don't particularly like the resulting hook shape.


I agree with everything you have said. I know Nick Smith liked the drilling enough, he even made a nice video showing different balls with the layout.

Parker winning with it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb1oQVAsM1s


Angie Ramirez last week

Image

I guess I will have to do video crawling for Barnes using it, but I know he likes it and uses it.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Span & Pitches: Is Length of Arm a factor?
 Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:12 am Post Number: #6 Post
Online
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2007
Posts: 3856
Location: Malta, NY
Reputation: 853
Reputation Power: 9
Bahshay wrote:
Parker won the 2008 Spartanburg Classic with it.

I've never tried a Rico drill or really had any interest in it. That said, it's hard to call it a failure when it's been around for 15 years. I don't think anyone anywhere "swears by it". Swearing by it is not the point, even Ric calls it a just tool in the toolbox to have when he posts on other forums. Is there a layout you swear by?

The Rico layout creates a very long hook zone for anyone I've ever seen throw it. Saying it's an utter failure because it doesn't hit for many is like saying Double Thumb is an utter failure because it hooks out for many. Both layouts do what they're supposed to do, even if you don't particularly like the resulting hook shape.


OK, thats 1. Overwhelming number of results. We dont know if he used it during the week or because the TV finals were on a short pattern full of lefties burning up the outside. Either way, I was pretty clear in my initial post why I think it isnt a good idea. Most of the players that *could* benefit from it cant use it because its not flare safe. There are not too many high rev guys are out there with PAPs less than 5". Over 5" you're going to have a problem with flaring over the fingers. A similar motion can be accomplished with other layouts that *ARE* flare safe. Instructions on "moving the bowtie" are not consistent and not guaranteed to work.

I swear by my benchmark layout since you're asking.
Its been calculated based on my release specs including my PAP, something Rico does not.
Different releases can yield dramatically different results with Rico.
Core type and shape can also shape differently by the same token.

If you want a flare safe alternative to Rico try a low flare layout on an asymmetric.
Somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 x 2.5 x 50, again the numbers will vary based on release specs.
Rico has been out there 15 years, during that time we've found better ways to provide a layout with a similar hook shape *ALL* bowlers can use.

Back on topic now. Thanks.

_________________
Please press the Image button if you feel I've been helpful.

“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rico Sidebar
 Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:31 pm Post Number: #7 Post
Offline
Certified Coach

Joined: December 13, 2014
Posts: 834
Location: San Juan, PR
Reputation: 126
Reputation Power: 2
I think we should stop calling it Rico and start calling it by it's real name which is probably going to be different for most. For one person it may be ? x 5 x 90, for the other ? x 4.5 x 80 etc... might work for you, might not, definitely not for everyone.

_________________
I'm out to prove dedication, discipline and really wanting it can go further than raw talent alone...
RPMs - 375-420
Speed - 15 monitor
Axis Tilt - 3* (yikes!!!)
Axis Rotation - depends on what I want the ball to do


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Span & Pitches: Is Length of Arm a factor?
 Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:53 pm Post Number: #8 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: October 22, 2010
Posts: 499
Location: Cleveland, OH
Reputation: 51
Reputation Power: 1
Quote:
OK, thats 1. Overwhelming number of results. We dont know if he used it during the week or because the TV finals were on a short pattern full of lefties burning up the outside. Either way, I was pretty clear in my initial post why I think it isnt a good idea. Most of the players that *could* benefit from it cant use it because its not flare safe. There are not too many high rev guys are out there with PAPs less than 5". Over 5" you're going to have a problem with flaring over the fingers. A similar motion can be accomplished with other layouts that *ARE* flare safe. Instructions on "moving the bowtie" are not consistent and not guaranteed to work.


Your statement was "Show me where Parker or Chris won on tour." I did that. You did NOT ask "show me how successful it is on tour". I can't answer that, nor did I try to. As you said, we don't know how often it's used during the week. That goes both ways.

Can you show me the data that defends that most of the players that could benefit from it will not be able to use it?

Quote:
I swear by my benchmark layout since you're asking.
Its been calculated based on my release specs including my PAP, something Rico does not.
Different releases can yield dramatically different results with Rico.
Core type and shape can also shape differently by the same token.


So you use your benchmark layout for every ball? Or do you use it for balls here and there to fill a specific role, which is exactly how I described people using Rico?


Quote:
Somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 x 2.5 x 50, again the numbers will vary based on release specs.
Rico has been out there 15 years, during that time we've found better ways to provide a layout with a similar hook shape *ALL* bowlers can use.


I tried that, it hit like crap for me with three different balls. Is it an utter failure? All bowlers being able to drill a ball with those numbers doesn't make it a better layout, it makes it a more driller friendly layout. The point of bowling is still to knock pins over, not to create the most driller friendly layouts. And that's not a knock on the layout, I'm sure it works well for many people and therefore it's a perfectly good layout to have in the bag for those people. Why is Rico different?

_________________
PAP- 4 1/8 over, 3/4 up
Speed - 17-18 monitor
Rev Rate - 475
Rotation - 65
Tilt - 12


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rico Sidebar
 Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:02 pm Post Number: #9 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: April 4, 2015
Posts: 191
Location: Iceland
Reputation: 11
Reputation Power: 1
just for conversation sake then I have never seen the MOtion hole used anywhere on tour, let alone win on tour. I'm guessing double thumb has won a few back when Mo was drilling for walter ray.

don't understand why the MOtion hole gets a by for the pin to pap distance and Val angle but not the Rico layout.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Span & Pitches: Is Length of Arm a factor?
 Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:19 pm Post Number: #10 Post
Offline
Pro Shop
User avatar

Joined: January 19, 2010
Posts: 222
Location: Southern Maryland
Reputation: 42
Reputation Power: 1
Bahshay wrote:

Your statement was "Show me where Parker or Chris won on tour." I did that. You did NOT ask "show me how successful it is on tour". I can't answer that, nor did I try to. As you said, we don't know how often it's used during the week. That goes both ways.

Can you show me the data that defends that most of the players that could benefit from it will not be able to use it?



So you use your benchmark layout for every ball? Or do you use it for balls here and there to fill a specific role, which is exactly how I described people using Rico?




I tried that, it hit like crap for me with three different balls. Is it an utter failure? All bowlers being able to drill a ball with those numbers doesn't make it a better layout, it makes it a more driller friendly layout. The point of bowling is still to knock pins over, not to create the most driller friendly layouts. And that's not a knock on the layout, I'm sure it works well for many people and therefore it's a perfectly good layout to have in the bag for those people. Why is Rico different?


This is why

viewtopic.php?p=10893#p10893


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rico Sidebar
 Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:50 pm Post Number: #11 Post
Offline
Industry Professional

Joined: July 5, 2009
Posts: 5
Reputation: 2
Reputation Power: 1
I'm really curious why out of the blue you've decided to 'bash' this 'layout'?
It's comical also because so many choose to bash it but there is actual physics behinds it's benefits but I know on here that's not important it's more to make fun of due to its origins

Carry on


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rico Sidebar
 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:22 am Post Number: #12 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 2820
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 233
Reputation Power: 3
Rico wrote:
I'm really curious why out of the blue you've decided to 'bash' this 'layout'?
It's comical also because so many choose to bash it but there is actual physics behinds it's benefits but I know on here that's not important it's more to make fun of due to its origins

Carry on

I would be very interested to read about the physics behind the benefits.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rico Sidebar
 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:17 am Post Number: #13 Post
Online
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2007
Posts: 3856
Location: Malta, NY
Reputation: 853
Reputation Power: 9
Rico wrote:
I'm really curious why out of the blue you've decided to 'bash' this 'layout'?
It's comical also because so many choose to bash it but there is actual physics behinds it's benefits but I know on here that's not important it's more to make fun of due to its origins

Carry on


Go ahead Ric. State "actual physics".
We encourage real fact and data based discussion, so please do state what you have.

Whats comical is you didnt pop on here when Mo was showing us ways to do the "Rico look" better and safer.
Why not?

The layout isnt flare safe for all players and we can accomplish the same "smoothed over" look with other layouts on both core types, symmetrical and asymmetrical while remaining flare safe.
That is why its not preferred.

_________________
Please press the Image button if you feel I've been helpful.

“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rico Sidebar
 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:39 am Post Number: #14 Post
Online
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2007
Posts: 3856
Location: Malta, NY
Reputation: 853
Reputation Power: 9
gunso wrote:
just for conversation sake then I have never seen the MOtion hole used anywhere on tour, let alone win on tour. I'm guessing double thumb has won a few back when Mo was drilling for walter ray.

don't understand why the MOtion hole gets a by for the pin to pap distance and Val angle but not the Rico layout.


Tom Smallwood uses MOtion Holed Radical balls on tour.
The MOtion hole ball starts out the layout in a flare safe position to start and around 3-4" pin to pap.
The depth of the motion hole changes the core shape so significantly that precision of the initial layout isnt as important.
We just need to get enough flare to start.

_________________
Please press the Image button if you feel I've been helpful.

“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rico Sidebar
 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:29 am Post Number: #15 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: October 22, 2010
Posts: 499
Location: Cleveland, OH
Reputation: 51
Reputation Power: 1
MegaMav wrote:
Tom Smallwood uses MOtion Holed Radical balls on tour.


Ok, that's one. Overwhelming number of results.

_________________
PAP- 4 1/8 over, 3/4 up
Speed - 17-18 monitor
Rev Rate - 475
Rotation - 65
Tilt - 12


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rico Sidebar
 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:11 am Post Number: #16 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: April 4, 2015
Posts: 191
Location: Iceland
Reputation: 11
Reputation Power: 1
MegaMav wrote:

Tom Smallwood uses MOtion Holed Radical balls on tour.
The MOtion hole ball starts out the layout in a flare safe position to start and around 3-4" pin to pap.
The depth of the motion hole changes the core shape so significantly that precision of the initial layout isnt as important.
We just need to get enough flare to start.


smallwood is probably just experiencing the benefit of the high top wright since he's just a halfthumber :D (for clarification this is a joke)

the motion hole doesn't take span into account either which would affect the results as well to some degree

I just don't see the reason that gets a by when the rico doesn't and gets a bashing. He has caveats about how to make it flare safe for people. I doubt he recommends as a first drilling or beginner drilling. Even Mo said in the thread posted that it is a useful layout as an alternative when nothing seems to be working.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rico Sidebar
 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:47 pm Post Number: #17 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 2820
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 233
Reputation Power: 3
gunso wrote:
I just don't see the reason that gets a by when the rico doesn't and gets a bashing. He has caveats about how to make it flare safe for people. I doubt he recommends as a first drilling or beginner drilling. Even Mo said in the thread posted that it is a useful layout as an alternative when nothing seems to be working.

fwiw
This "bashing" as it is being called is no more than a warning to drillers and bowlers about the negative side of drilling a ball like this. For some people the risk is not worth the reward and feel strongly about taking those types of chances.

The way I see it the Rico drilling is a way to take some of the effect of the core out of the ball motion. Because sometimes the strength of the coverstock is enough to get the ball to roll. Much like using a very long pin to PAP, a Pin Axis drilling or a ball with a Differential less than .020. All of which I have tried. I have yet to waste any time or money on a Rico because I am one of those bowlers that Pin Down layouts end up thumping over the fingers.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rico Sidebar
 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:09 pm Post Number: #18 Post
Offline
Trusted Source

Joined: January 30, 2010
Posts: 3196
Location: Hawesville KY/Tell City IN
Reputation: 246
Reputation Power: 3
Quote:
Tom Smallwood uses MOtion Holed Radical balls on tour.


That's interesting. Smallwood is a full roller and I don't remember ever seeing that the MOtion holed ball is applicable to full rollers. I think I even asked Mo about that one time and never got a reply. Any further info about its application to full rollers? -- JohnP


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rico Sidebar
 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:56 pm Post Number: #19 Post
Offline
Certified Coach

Joined: December 13, 2014
Posts: 834
Location: San Juan, PR
Reputation: 126
Reputation Power: 2
Ok, so Rico means pin in the middle of the span, correct? With a 45* drilling angle in asymmetrical cores, correct? I can see the drilling angle being consistent but the pin to pap and VAL angle will be dependent on your PAP, correct? I am a curious guy and want to respectfully take the opportunity to ask you Ric about your layout. Do you adjust the pin position to give a certain Pin to PAP and VAL angle depending on the bowlers PAP or is it pin in palm for everyone? Do you make any adjustments on this layout based on the bowlers specs, mainly axis tilt and speed to revs ratio? Finally, you say there are some physics behind how this layout came to be, are they dependent on core design? I am really interested in your explanation, we don't always get a chance to ask the source, maybe many people are just not doing this layout like you intended...

_________________
I'm out to prove dedication, discipline and really wanting it can go further than raw talent alone...
RPMs - 375-420
Speed - 15 monitor
Axis Tilt - 3* (yikes!!!)
Axis Rotation - depends on what I want the ball to do


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rico Sidebar
 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:45 pm Post Number: #20 Post
Offline
Industry Professional

Joined: July 5, 2009
Posts: 5
Reputation: 2
Reputation Power: 1
Anyone that truly understands layouts should also understand layout potentials AND NOT possible absolutions and realize ALL layouts are flare management...controlling the flare for the bowlers, so they respond accordingly (after the ball has slowed down of course) and managing so it misses the drilled holes...anyone that truly understands ball motion wouldn't make the comment - 'saw one on a Cash and all it did was bounce off the pocket'...did you ever consider that it may be the cover over responding to the condition? If I remember correctly, surface dictates 70-75% of motion and the layout truly only effects after the ball has slowed down CORRECTLY...
Calling it or anything else an utter failure due to an observation is typical in the game of bowling...it's much easier to disrespect another than truly trying to access a situation...
You asked who had won on tour with it...PBIII as stated and yes he used it the whole week as Benoit placed a weight hole in the mass bias increasing the overall dynamics of the ball...PBIII tended to like it as it compensated for his speed dominance and the existing conditions...
Barnes has won with it...within the past few years actually...as has Ciminelli at the US Open...but hey who's counting?

As far as the physics/dynamics and so you may understand why & when I recommend it...while I was still at Brunswick, Bill Wasserberger & I dove into the numbers of this layout for shits & giggles...Bill in case you forgot, was before his passing, the smartest guy in bowling and his credentials backed that up...thus I trusted his 'opinion'
My contention was & is, by placing the gripping holes 'around' the pin/mass you avoid drilling into the core more than any other layout...leaving the bulk of the dynamics alive...so the undrilled core numbers stay intact...by adding the weight hole at 6.75" from the pin...it increases the asymmetry in the core and thus the overall dynamics of the core...and movement
Are
Last but not least...understanding the layout and existing pin to pap numbers per players is important but the pap tells the story...it tends to 'help' compensate each players necessity or lack of...BUT it is a go to layout when other benchmark type layouts struggle...case in point, when Benoit was still the tour rep and I 'helped' on occasion, every staffer had this layout in their bag on multiple covers...the current tour rep does not feel the same thus the lack of use...but NOT every pin to pap layout or weight hole placement is universal...5" for a 450 rev rate vs a 250 will create varying amt of flare potential and transition, as will a 3.375" pin to pap
And yes I have in certain situations adjusted the pin to pap distance to enhance the flare potential for the player/condition...

...the only reason I posted in the first place was a 'friend' informed me of it and as I stated, find it curious why you choose to rehash your apparent disdain for the name and layout...AND for reference it was a name I did NOT place on it but it was given...I do NOT reference it as the 'Rico' but the pin in the palm layout....I am not that insecure that I need that...

I'm not sure why things need to be made personal...it's a layout nothing more nothing less...and it's had a name placed on it for a reference point...you don't like it move on...why waste life and energy?


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Board index » Mo & Friends » General Discussion


 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: