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 Post subject: Span & Pitches: Is Length of Arm a factor in fitting?
 Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:07 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Over on ballreviews a user had a question about changing their span and/or pitches to help with some problem.

http://www.ballreviews.com/drilling-layouts/change-span-or-pitch-t314682.0.html

Rico (Ric Hamlin) gave a reply:
"Span dictates the initial angle...flexibility grip strength and length of digits would be next plus length of arm "

I've never heard of length of arm being used in fitting a grip.

How does the length of your arm figure into your span and pitch measurements?

Someone else asked a similar question to Rico, his reply was:

"It's a lever (the arm)...the longer the lever the easier it is to support "

That's a little cryptic for me, I just wondered if anyone else could elaborate.

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Last edited by bowl1820 on Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Span & Pitches: Is Length of Arm a factor?
 Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:44 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:
How does the length of your arm figure into your span and pitch measurements?


If I went into a Pro Shop and they wanted to measure the length of my arm to determine a proper grip.
I would ask if they could provide me with the winning lottery numbers if not I would seek out another pro shop.

The arm is attached to the torso which could also be considered part of the lever system.

Should we also measure the length of the torso?

I find self-professed experts should be avoided at all costs!

I personally am not in favor of anyone playing trial and error on the internet to get a good grip.

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 Post subject: Re: Span & Pitches: Is Length of Arm a factor?
 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:36 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Bill Taylor, for what it is worth, thought "long arms", had a negative effect on timing.

Layouts: a universal acceptance, of a particular layout, lacks creditability; a universal rejection of a particular layout lacks validity.

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 Post subject: Re: Span & Pitches: Is Length of Arm a factor?
 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:40 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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guruU2 wrote:
Bill Taylor, for what it is worth, thought "long arms", had a negative effect on timing.
.

Gary,
In your behemoth collection of bowling artifacts, do you have any documentation where Bill provides data as to why having a long arm has a negative effect on timing.

For me, timing is simply the time difference between the feet and bowling ball getting to the foul line.

Any good coach should be able to manipulate timing to provide optimum performance for an athlete regardless of the length of their arm.

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 Post subject: Re: Span & Pitches: Is Length of Arm a factor?
 Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:06 am Post Number: #5 Post
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JMerrell wrote:

Gary,
In your behemoth collection of bowling artifacts, do you have any documentation where Bill provides data as to why having a long arm has a negative effect on timing.

For me, timing is simply the time difference between the feet and bowling ball getting to the foul line.

Any good coach should be able to manipulate timing to provide optimum performance for an athlete regardless of the length of their arm.


I don't have the data, But in a article by Ron Clifton he mentions Bill Taylor comparing arm and leg length and the affects on timing. It appears to have to do with the length of the swing cycle (the shorter the arms the shorter swing cycle) compared to the gait of the feet.

"Four-Tenths of a Second That Can Change Your Life – Part 1: A variation of the four step standard"

https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/bowling-tips/four-tenths-of-a-second-that-can-change-your-life-part-1/

Excerpt containing the Taylor reference:
"The four step standard

The word “timing” has been associated with bowling for as long as…well, I have no idea; maybe from the days of wood bowling balls. We have been taught that bowling is based on a four step delivery. Let’s call this the “Four Step Standard.”

In the four step standard, the ball is pushed away in the stance simultaneously with the first step. That, in turn, will place the ball halfway to the top of the backswing when the second step lands. The third step will correspond to the ball reaching the top of the backswing. The fourth step goes into the slide and the foot and ball arrive at the foul line at the same time. A bowler using this technique would be said to be “in time.”

Most bowlers could do this type of timing routine, but not all. You see, we are not all proportioned the same. Some of us have long legs in relation to arm length. Some have long arms in relation to leg length.

Most of my height, for example, is in my legs. By comparison to someone else who has the same leg length, I have short arms. Having short arms can cause me to have a short “swing cycle” (more on swing cycles later) compared to the natural gait of my feet.

I discovered the arm to leg length discrepancies due to my own struggles with timing many years ago. Coach Bill Taylor brought it to the world’s attention as he wrote about it long before I did.

Bill Taylor actually went around measuring people’s arms and legs, trying to assign a mathematical formula for use in correcting timing issues based on the length of body parts. There are many other factors that are just as important that need to be taken into account when adjusting timing.
"

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 Post subject: Re: Span & Pitches: Is Length of Arm a factor?
 Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:31 am Post Number: #6 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:
"The four step standard
In the four step standard, the ball is pushed away in the stance simultaneously with the first step.
That, in turn, will place the ball halfway to the top of the backswing when the second step lands.
The third step will correspond to the ball reaching the top of the backswing.
The fourth step goes into the slide and the foot and ball arrive at the foul line at the same time. A bowler using this technique would be said to be “in time.”


This type of advice on timing is bad, bad, bad for developing a competitive game.

When you push the ball away, how do you know if you have pushed it far enough or too far?

As for the position of the ball after the second step, Don Johnson told us 4 decades ago that the ball position should be past the ball side leg, not halfway to the top.

Check out youtube and you will find out he was right. When the ball is past the leg, this is often referred to as early timing, early timing in that part of the approach is a very good thing. Creates the opportunity to develop a short power step and lag later in the approach.

The ball and the slide foot arrive at the foul line at the same time. Yeah, if you want to be a low rev rate player. The competitive athlete needs delayed timing, timing that will allow time for the hand to accelerate before it reaches the slide foot.

I certainly don't have the data, my observations tell me that 80% of the competitive athletes I observe are 5 step bowlers.

That so-called four step standard timing was what I was exposed to when I began to learn how to bowl, damn that was horrible advice.

I've often heard the phrase....the instructional manual never bowled a game....a good thing.

I don't care how long or short your arms or legs may be, I can put you in optimal timing to create power. The phrase "in time" is out of date!

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 Post subject: Re: Span & Pitches: Is Length of Arm a factor in fitting?
 Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:43 am Post Number: #7 Post
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Hi Jim-
JMerrell wrote:
do you have any documentation where Bill provides data as to why having a long arm has a negative effect on timing


My reference is this: I was attending an IBPSIA sponsored event 20-25 years ago in Orlando and Taylor answered a question that was posed to him: Why haven't black bowlers had the success in bowling that white bowlers had. Bill, in his straight forward way, said black bowlers have too long arms to be "great" bowlers and went on to explain why he held that position. His answer, if I remember correctly, corresponding to above mentioned article. It was the explanation offered by Bill at the time.

bowl1820 wrote:
Bill Taylor actually went around measuring people’s arms and legs, trying to assign a mathematical formula for use in correcting timing issues based on the length of body parts. There are many other factors that are just as important that need to be taken into account when adjusting timing


I believe I remember this writing. I do remember Bill measuring arms with a tailor's ruler.


Take it for what it is worth but remember Taylor's understanding of the game was deeply rooted in the sport as played in the 50s and 60s, that is, lacquer and wood.

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 Post subject: Re: Span & Pitches: Is Length of Arm a factor?
 Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:41 am Post Number: #8 Post
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JMerrell wrote:
That so-called four step standard timing was what I was exposed to when I began to learn how to bowl, damn that was horrible advice.
!


Just something to note, Rons article is from 7 years ago and the excerpt is from the first part which is talking more about the history of timing etc. and he gets into 5 steps etc. later on as it comes forward.


Also interesting as this maybe, how arm length may affect timing. That should have its own thread.


It's not what the original post was about, which was did arm length have any bearing on "fitting" a ball and determing spans and/or pitches.

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 Post subject: Re: Span & Pitches: Is Length of Arm a factor in fitting?
 Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:17 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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I believe Bill was analyzing the effects of ratio of arm to leg length. Ken Webber was an associate of his around then.
I was actually in the primary stages of getting an analysis by Bill. He sent me some diagrams, what and how to measure body parts. He was to have been in Arizona at some part, and we would have gotten together. Just would have welcomed meeting and working with a true pioneer, legend, and icon. Definitely a deserving denizen of Bowling's Mount Rushmore (if there was such a thing).
Somewhere in my archives, I may have some hard copy, including a few hand written notes.
Mind you, I was not a talented bowler, but was a serious student of the game and welcomed a learning experience from one of the sports best ever!

Cheerio!

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