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 Post subject: 2 hand axis tilt
 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:38 am Post Number: #1 Post
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If I measured properly the diameter of my first oil ring is 13.5" which would give me 0 axis tilt? I have a lot of trouble after games 1-2 especially on sport patterns...how can I raise my tilt so I can move in when lanes transition?


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 Post subject: Re: 2 hand axis tilt
 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:11 am Post Number: #2 Post
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is your problem not getting the ball far enough down lane or is the ball not finishing?

what are your finger pitches and what balls are you using on the fresh and when you move in?


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 Post subject: Re: 2 hand axis tilt
 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:39 am Post Number: #3 Post
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gunso wrote:
is your problem not getting the ball far enough down lane or is the ball not finishing?

what are your finger pitches and what balls are you using on the fresh and when you move in?


My ball doesn't finish/reads early and multiple people gave told me I need to work on going around the ball more. My pitches are 1" reverse and 1/2" lateral left and 1/2" right. As for balls it depends on what pattern I'm on


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 Post subject: Re: 2 hand axis tilt
 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:21 am Post Number: #4 Post
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There are a couple of things you can try. I would try them seperately. Most of non pro two handers (myself included) I've seen overrotate early and therefore lose speed, projection and axis tilt to get the ball down lane. I had exactly the same problem this spring with not getting the ball to finish when moving in and my tilt was actually negative. I'm still working on it and can get it around 10 if I really focus on it but is 0 with my a game. I'd recommend doing the foul line drill and 1 step drill at least 10 times every time you go bowling, that has really opened up my game.

Add 1/4 - 1/2 forward in the middle finger only. When I do this I get lots of rotation on the ball yet my axis tilt seems to stay around 0 but I have no problem moving in and get the ball to finish. This is what most of the experts on here would suggest and has worked for some.

Add 1/8 - 1/4 left lateral in both fingers. I've seen this advice but I don't think this will help two handers if the problem is rotating to early.

Add 1/4 - 1/2 forward in the ring finger only. When I do this the weight of the ball stays a lot longer on my index finger. I haven't measured my axis tilt recently with this but I seem to be able to control the rotation a lot better with these pitches. It also makes sense to me that this drilling should promote axis tilt in no thumbers since this puts the middle finger slightly lower then the ring finger at release which should raise the axis tilt I believe. Disclaimer this is contrary to what Mo Pinel recommends which is 1/4 forward 7/16 left MF and 3/8 reverse 7/16 right as starting pitches for two handers.

Add 1/8 - 1/4 right lateral in both fingers. This should accomplish the same thing as the one above to get the weight more on the index finger then in your palm. You don't want the weight on your palm at the top of the backswing.

Very interested to hear what you decide to try and how it goes.


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 Post subject: Re: 2 hand axis tilt
 Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:03 am Post Number: #5 Post
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gunso wrote:
There are a couple of things you can try. I would try them seperately. Most of non pro two handers (myself included) I've seen overrotate early and therefore lose speed, projection and axis tilt to get the ball down lane. I had exactly the same problem this spring with not getting the ball to finish when moving in and my tilt was actually negative. I'm still working on it and can get it around 10 if I really focus on it but is 0 with my a game. I'd recommend doing the foul line drill and 1 step drill at least 10 times every time you go bowling, that has really opened up my game.

Add 1/4 - 1/2 forward in the middle finger only. When I do this I get lots of rotation on the ball yet my axis tilt seems to stay around 0 but I have no problem moving in and get the ball to finish. This is what most of the experts on here would suggest and has worked for some.

Add 1/8 - 1/4 left lateral in both fingers. I've seen this advice but I don't think this will help two handers if the problem is rotating to early.

Add 1/4 - 1/2 forward in the ring finger only. When I do this the weight of the ball stays a lot longer on my index finger. I haven't measured my axis tilt recently with this but I seem to be able to control the rotation a lot better with these pitches. It also makes sense to me that this drilling should promote axis tilt in no thumbers since this puts the middle finger slightly lower then the ring finger at release which should raise the axis tilt I believe. Disclaimer this is contrary to what Mo Pinel recommends which is 1/4 forward 7/16 left MF and 3/8 reverse 7/16 right as starting pitches for two handers.

Add 1/8 - 1/4 right lateral in both fingers. This should accomplish the same thing as the one above to get the weight more on the index finger then in your palm. You don't want the weight on your palm at the top of the backswing.

Very interested to hear what you decide to try and how it goes.


Same problem with negative axis tilt :-)

I fixed it very quickly, just by straight arm swing (or bend a bit) and releasing the ball from 'inside' - not side-rotating, this may request you to step left (I am rightie) to create space for swing then slide back to your initial position, in the setup hold the ball with your hand 'under' and rotate slightly 'inside' toward your non-ball hip, your supporting-hand nearly touch your ball-hand

I did not change anything in layout and finger pitch, but can increase the tilt

Not sure if it works for you but curious to hear


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 Post subject: Re: 2 hand axis tilt
 Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:29 am Post Number: #6 Post
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Gunso, if I read your post right you want him to hook the ring finger which will lower the tilt. On a non thumb bowler start with 1/4" forward in the MF and 3/8 reverse in the ring finger. Start with 7/16" lateral in each finger also. Good luck.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 hand axis tilt
 Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:30 am Post Number: #7 Post
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Dustin not all no thumb hands are the same. it is ridiculous thinking the same thing works for all no thumbers since we don't have a thumb in the equation. finger lengths are not the same anf the pitches affect how the ball sits in the hand. a more hooked ring finger will make the ball sit more on the index rather than the palm.

a common problem for 2 handers is rotating the hand too soon and the weight of the ball gets outside too soon.

what I recommended was trying everything and I was clear that people smarter then me recommend hooking the middle finger. that said there is an q/a with bill spigner in one of the old papers where he recommends hooking the ring finger for this exact purpose of putting the weight to the index finger

edited for a link to the article https://www.google.is/url?sa=t&source=w ... 3GaLHa6OXA


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 Post subject: Re: 2 hand axis tilt
 Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:46 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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gunso wrote:
Dustin not all no thumb hands are the same. it is ridiculous thinking the same thing works for all no thumbers since we don't have a thumb in the equation. finger lengths are not the same anf the pitches affect how the ball sits in the hand. a more hooked ring finger will make the ball sit more on the index rather than the palm.

Wow easy trigger. I never said you were wrong and I very much understand not all hands are the same as I have drilled a few in my 15 years of operating a shop. Was just trying to get a starting point. Not the most well versed at no thumb fittings so I will not comment again.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 hand axis tilt
 Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:21 am Post Number: #9 Post
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Dustin wrote:
Wow easy trigger. I never said you were wrong and I very much understand not all hands are the same as I have drilled a few in my 15 years of operating a shop. Was just trying to get a starting point. Not the most well versed at no thumb fittings so I will not comment again.


Don't take my snarky comments as a meaning as I not respect your views. Sometimes choice of words for us that don't have the english language as a first language are simply for a lack of a better vocabulary. I'm guessing it was my choice of word ridiciluous, is was not to be meant as an insult.


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 Post subject: Re: 2 hand axis tilt
 Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:31 am Post Number: #10 Post
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I usually drill fingers for no-thumbers and Detroit half-thumbs with the following procedure:

Draw desired CLT line relative to pin and CG and mark the MF location. (CG in RF is typical for no-thumbers)
Lay bowlers hand on CLT line, with MF on marked line.
Mark RF location.
Check to be sure MF and RF markings line up with the finger joints when hand is aligned with CLT.
Adjust cut lines for inserts.
Drill fingers on CLT line with 7/16 laterals and ~5/16 reverse.

Players seem to like the results.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 hand axis tilt
 Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:43 am Post Number: #11 Post
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snick wrote:
I usually drill fingers for no-thumbers and Detroit half-thumbs with the following procedure:

Draw desired CLT line relative to pin and CG and mark the MF location. (CG in RF is typical for no-thumbers)
Lay bowlers hand on CLT line, with MF on marked line.
Mark RF location.
Check to be sure MF and RF markings line up with the finger joints when hand is aligned with CLT.
Adjust cut lines for inserts.
Drill fingers on CLT line with 7/16 laterals and ~5/16 reverse.

Players seem to like the results.


Could you post pictures of an example? I am always intrigued in trying new stuff but not sure I am visualising this correctly. Not sure how to draw the CLT line when I don't have a thumb as well since my understanding is that the CLT line is the angle in reference to the thumb.


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 Post subject: Re: 2 hand axis tilt
 Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:32 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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On 2 handers, I draw a vertical line where I want the middle of the fingers to be (where you would measure the layout on a dodo scale for finger and thumb wt if it had one.) I lay the bowlers hand flat on the ball with fingers over the area where I am going to put the holes and mark a line between the bowling fingers in order to find that CLT line. I lay the prosect on that line and mark the angle. The line to the spine would be 0* and the CLT line is the line I align to and use for the center-line while drilling the fingers in order to get the correct pitches.


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 Post subject: Re: 2 hand axis tilt
 Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:06 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Hello elgavachon, I think that's more or less what snick is talking about but I believe he also marks the first knuckle creases to acomodate for the difference in length between the middle and the ring finger. Do you do the same or just drill them side by side on the CLT? It seems it makes sense to take into account this difference in crease location even if it's minimal, never tried it though.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 hand axis tilt
 Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:11 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Hello elgavachon, I think that's more or less what snick is talking about but I believe he also marks the first knuckle creases to acomodate for the difference in length between the middle and the ring finger. Do you do the same or just drill them side by side on the CLT? It seems it makes sense to take into account this difference in crease location even if it's minimal, never tried it though.

When I lay the hand flat on the ball with the fingers over the location, I put the creases where I want them. If you do not do this, It will not give you the results you are after. sorry for not making that clear.
The most fore-ward on any fingers for 2 handers that I have used is 3/4" reverse. I usually start with that and 7/16" left and 7/16" right using the CLT line as the center-line. So far all of them have kept it that way except 1 old guy with no thumb who felt better with 1" reverse.


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