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 Post subject: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:27 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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I heard mr.Mo Pinel (whom i respect a lot for his bowling knowledge), say, that our bowling ball hits harder only AFTER it has completed the hook phase, and is at 0 axis rotation rolling out at the pins, and not WHILE it is still hooking into the pins. My questions are :

1. Why is that?
2. What are the physics behind it ?
3. Has this been tested with the mechanical arm bot? Did they use it to throw balls hitting early and late in the hook phase, and compared it to hitting in the roll phase?
4. Why do we hear so many times, that a ball "rolled out and arrived dead at the pocket, leaving X or Y pin" ?
5. Does "more hitting power" necessarily equals higher carry % ?

Thanks for any replies. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:11 am Post Number: #2 Post
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TheJesus wrote:
I heard mr.Mo Pinel (whom i respect a lot for his bowling knowledge), say, that our bowling ball hits harder only AFTER it has completed the hook phase, and is at 0 axis rotation rolling out at the pins, and not WHILE it is still hooking into the pins. My questions are :
roll occurs when tilt=rotation, this is when hitting power is at its highest.
When tilt and rotation=0 it is often call rolled out, speed and revolutions are now decreasing.

1. Why is that? revolutions are at the highest and the forces are all in one direction.
2. What are the physics behind it ? I wish I had a grasp of physics that would allow me to explain this. Linear forces vs angular forces.
3. Has this been tested with the mechanical arm bot? Did they use it to throw balls hitting early and late in the hook phase, and compared it to hitting in the roll phase? Mo and others in the industry have seen many bowlers and throwbots evaluating the ball motions. There is enough video online to study to come up with many examples to prove or at least demonstrate this. I know when I have thrown a ball with too much rotation I feel lucky when it carries because I know the higher rotation is going to make it roll later.
4. Why do we hear so many times, that a ball "rolled out and arrived dead at the pocket, leaving X or Y pin" ? Today's coverstocks are so strong and typical lane conditions have a lot of friction. Couple that with a strong layout and the roll happens too soon.
5. Does "more hitting power" necessarily equals carry % ? Yes

Thanks for any replies. :)

comments in color above

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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:31 am Post Number: #3 Post
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TheJesus wrote:
I heard ...............:)


You should take a look at the ball motion section of the wiki and read:
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Bowling_Ball_Technology#Ball_Motion

USBC Ball Motion Study
USBC Pin Carry Study
Entry Angle By Neil Stremmel

The charts for Three Phases of Ball Motion

Example:
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:51 am Post Number: #4 Post
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In addition to the good information already shared, here is a reference from REAL WORLD PHYSICS PROBLEMS.

http://www.real-world-physics-problems. ... wling.html

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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:18 am Post Number: #5 Post
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@Eric Hartwell : thanks for the replies. A few comments.

1. What you mean by tilt=rotation exactly? Are we talking in the end of the hook phase, but before both become zero?
2. So if both tilt and rotation are zero, then we have gone passed the "max power" moment ? (roll out)? Is this phase worse or better than when the ball hits the pins while hooking?
3. If 1 and 2 are true, then the "max power" condition lasts only a fraction of a second (when tilt is exactly equal to rotation) ?
4. From the podcast i listened to, it seems that Mo is saying that we should WANT the roll to come as early as possible. If i understood correctly. If so, why do we hear and see balls leaving pins because the were "dead" in front of the pocket ?
5. If the "max hitting power" is defined as when tilt=rotation, does than mean that a person with 30 degrees of tilt and 30 degrees of rotation, has the ball in a "max power" condition from release? (assuming he releases with 30-30)

@bowl1820 : Thanks for the links. The ball motion study was more about which factors affect ball motion the most (lane friction, coverstock etc), and the pin carry study had to do with lane construction the most. (plus we can't see the videos).

@kajmk : that was a nice physics page, thank you. Although some of the math was a bit too much for me, in the end, it didn't address my question about which point should the ball hit the pins and why.


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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:49 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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I don't fully understand the physics of it, but as a bowling writer I'm very aware of the words used to describe the process, and I think that it's the words that are confusing you. It's really easier to understand what's happening to the ball as it goes down the lane if you view it as a five step process rather than a three step process: skid, hook, hook-out, roll, and roll-out. When the ball finishes hooking (hook-out) and begins to roll is when it's at its maximum power. That moment in time does not last long, and that's the reason that balls lose energy before they get to the pins; they've started to roll too early and are beginning to roll-out. While you will see the pros occasionally throwing a shot where they intentionally get the ball to roll early to bleed off some of the energy, it's really not something that amateur bowlers can do simply because most are not consistent enough in terms of either ball speed or release. For the amateur, getting the ball to the pins at maximum energy should always be the goal.


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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:18 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
I don't fully understand the physics of it, but as a bowling writer I'm very aware of the words used to describe the process, and I think that it's the words that are confusing you. It's really easier to understand what's happening to the ball as it goes down the lane if you view it as a five step process rather than a three step process: skid, hook, hook-out, roll, and roll-out. When the ball finishes hooking (hook-out) and begins to roll is when it's at its maximum power. That moment in time does not last long, and that's the reason that balls lose energy before they get to the pins; they've started to roll too early and are beginning to roll-out. While you will see the pros occasionally throwing a shot where they intentionally get the ball to roll early to bleed off some of the energy, it's really not something that amateur bowlers can do simply because most are not consistent enough in terms of either ball speed or release. For the amateur, getting the ball to the pins at maximum energy should always be the goal.

Hm. So could we say that the "magic time frame" when we have the "max hitting power" , is between the following conditions? :
1. tilt = axis rotation (which happens before both become zero, if i understand correctly)
2. tilt = 0 , axis = 0 (the ball is fully stabilized and attempts to turn no more)

So then the "dead ball", "with nothing on it", etc situations, occur in the 0-0 (roll out) phase ?

Then i have another question: if a ball begins to roll, (meaning tilt=axis rotation), then it is still not fully stabilized at a balanced position 100% , right? To be fully balanced don't both Tilt and Axis need to be zero ? If so, then it can still hook a bit in between those 2 conditions, correct?

So wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the most hitting power is right before the ball completely stabilizes to 0 tilt and zero axis rotation, or in other words, slightly before it completely stops changing direction?


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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:32 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
I don't fully understand the physics of it


I probably should have stopped reading after that.
You dont understand the physics of it, but somehow you're adding two more phases of motion to the process, making it more complicated.
TheJesus wrote:

1. Why is that? - Because maximum rev rate and maximum entry angle for that delivery is achieved in the roll phase. If you deliver the ball with 275RPMs it will be approximately 400 RPM when it hits the pins.
2. What are the physics behind it ? See the image bowl1820 posted. Its succinct and accurate! See more information here: http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... all_Motion
3. Has this been tested with the mechanical arm bot? Did they use it to throw balls hitting early and late in the hook phase, and compared it to hitting in the roll phase? CATS can measure this easily.
4. Why do we hear so many times, that a ball "rolled out and arrived dead at the pocket, leaving X or Y pin" ? Because many people dont understand that its actually poor entry angle and position in the pocket likely causing it. Also, they may be seeing the ball bounce off the pocket because the ball is still rotating in the hook phase with rotational forces acting away from the pins (hook) rather than toward it (roll).
5. Does "more hitting power" necessarily equals higher carry % ? Yes. Maximum rev rate and maximum entry angle for that delivery will carry more often.

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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:25 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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I've clipped part of a response from an older thread.

As it was explained to me by Rolf Gauger, the optimum moment, is in fact just that, a moment. Rolf used the term "HOOK OUT".

Quoting myself
Successful Bowling is predicated on getting the ball to transition through its three phases. There is a window of opportunity at the end of the third phase.
Look at the discussion in this thread. I was taught by Coach Rolf Gauger (R.I.P) that the optimum time for a ball to hit the pocket is "hook out". That leads to the following habit, always " post your shot" remaining in your finishing position watching the ball until it enters the pit. The balls path through the pins will provide clues.
In today's game, you want the ball to split the 8-9.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3236&p=25503&hilit=hookout#p25503

End of quote.


The phases of the ball as it were, are more easily observed when using a marker
on the Positive axis of the ball.

The use of video, makes things easier to observe.
When there are no pins on the deck or the pocket area, is easier to see what the position of the axis is.
Keep in mind, that other variables are involved, we are just talking bowling ball.
The extremes, such as too much PAP visible or non visible are easier to see.

I'm sure there is a equation that will yield numbers or a quantification of force.
Seeing that number in relation to the orientation of the PAP, would give us a measurable.

Perhaps the Marx Brothers quip, " who ya gonna believe, me or your eyes applies"
Seeing a ball strike with no help from kick backs, curtains, side walls, resilient gutters, is proof you most likely nailed it!

Monitor who is winning the battle at the pin deck, the ball or the pins.
The old adage, the more your ball finishes towards the 9 pin (right handed) 8 for left handed, the more the ball is deflecting.

Are there other ways to strike? Yes! A roll out shot entering the pocket from an extreme angle can strike and strike often because the depleted energy is offset by the extreme angle, Amelleto Monacelli did this at times. Angle of entry is a very important variable.

So use a PAP marker, observe action at impact, where the ball leaves the deck, they are key clues.
In practice if you have several balls, mark the PAP now attempt to get the ball to roll out by too little speed or too much friction. Now do the opposite.
If you only have 1 ball you can still do this using speed and degree of friction in the ball path.

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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:36 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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I did not make up the terms "hook out" and "roll out" as kajmk points out. I simply utilized existing terminology to help someone to understand something in practical terms. Just because I don't fully understand the physics behind it, does not mean that I do not understand the concept and can help others to understand it as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:31 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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It has allways been my understanding max hitting comes within 1 - 5 revolutions after the hook phase, IE: the ball has finished hooking and now in the roll phase towards the pins. Bearing in mind the ball is slowly slowing down, hence after 5 revolutions the ball could have slowed down too much hitting with less power.

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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:11 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
I did not make up the terms "hook out" and "roll out" as kajmk points out. I simply utilized existing terminology to help someone to understand something in practical terms. Just because I don't fully understand the physics behind it, does not mean that I do not understand the concept and can help others to understand it as well.


I just lost everything I spent time typing ...
Yuck! My A/C has been out since Friday evening, so my patience should be as low as the temperature is high (inverse proportion?)

Oh well.

Just to clarify, I was NOT seeking to point out Rob did not coin the phrase "hook out". I know I learned it from Rolf. To be perfectly honest, I never asked him if he coined the phrase, but it sounds like a "slang" term or colloquial sporting parlance, in the same sense as "carry", "roll out", "chicken wing".

Rob has probably helped more bowler's improve then there are members on this forum.
Let's keep that in mind.

Coachs live for the moment the students "light bulb" turns on (a phrase I believe I read by Susie Minshew).
If I recall correctly, master teacher Tom Kouros had many things in his book he learned from many others, he wrote of terms etc, "period of oscillation" to name one.
In most cases most of us have a "laymans" understanding of many things in the physical world, we know it when we see it without all the semantics. Conversely, the book "The Physics of Baseball" was written by a friend, (a Yale professor of physics) of the MLB commissioner at the time. Not being steeped in physics I understood Tom's conveyance easier.

Sometimes we have moments where we pass on information and the recipient has the background to explain it back scientifically. I explained how and why a bowling ball hooked to a young boy once, he got it, and also understood the physics, it was a good exchange.

Teach bowling to an engineer or physics teacher, or write a letter to an English teacher for example.

Let's encourage not discourage.





Old thread of Olive branches and arrows.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9190&hilit=Olive






Cheerio!

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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:51 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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While sort of multi tasking I heard an Archaeologist make a comment "it is good to be wrong" on program my wife had on. I think it was within the context of learning or experimentation.
He had a theory and realized that whether he was right, an ego moment, or wrong, knowledge was gained. Healthy attitude which fosters progress.
Reminds me of a story I heard about Walter Ray Williams, himself degreed in physics, about a paper he wrote which as it turns out did not work. I can't remember the facts, but it was on a tv snippet.

This link has some interesting Q&A with Deadeye.

http://www.iop.org/careers/working-life ... 57748.html

Intuitively, I understand how the idea was born, as I've moved large heavy objects by walking them so to speak. Can I explain in terms of physics why? No.


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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:58 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
When the ball finishes hooking (hook-out) and begins to roll is when it's at its maximum power. That moment in time does not last long, and that's the reason that balls lose energy before they get to the pins; they've started to roll too early and are beginning to roll-out.


These quotes seem tailor made for each other.

Mo Pinel wrote:
Maximum rev rate is definitely achieved at the second transition when the skid factor is entirely gone. No slip any more after that. The rev rate will decrease very slightly after that because the ball speed continues to decrease slowly. There is no other accurate explanation as much as you want to massage it.


REF: http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?p=75388#p75388

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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 am Post Number: #15 Post
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Not many league bowlers understand this on today's conditions. Unless you live in a metro area that caters to the blocked house shot. Many of us in fly over America are finding the same shot as the metro areas. Why? Because they can't afford to lose business. Tougher shots mean that your not as good as you think you are. So why do they put out blocked shots? Follow the money, they can't afford to lose lineage. I'm one to let the pattern challenge me, it's the only way I'm going to improve as a bowler.

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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:35 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Also, they may be seeing the ball bounce off the pocket because the ball is still rotating in the hook phase with rotational forces acting away from the pins (hook) rather than toward it (roll).


Ok so has there been a robot test throwing balls that have

1. stopped hooking very early (but with a 4-6 degree angle to the pocket)
2. stopped hooking right before hitting the head pin (with a 4-6 degree angle to the pocket)
3. hasn't stopped hooking but is in the end of the hook phase (with a 4-6 degree angle to the pocket)
4. hasn't stopped hooking and is in the middle of the hook phase

and then compared the carry % of all these, (keeping all other variables constant) ?

I think, that would help a lot on the subject. I read on the "burn-up" thread you have here, a lot of things about the AR, AT, and perhaps a practical test would be the faster way to come to conclusions.


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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:27 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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There is a lot that goes into carry in the environment as a whole.
I recommend reading the USBC Pin Carry Study on our wiki, and I also recommend exploring the wiki in its entirety to understand our sport better at a technical level.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... yStudy.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:52 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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For many years Bowling This Month Magazine was a good source of information.
I was an avid reader during their "paper" era. I still subscribe but frankly rarely open the electronic version. A bit odd, because I was a computer programmer analyst for 30 years, my second profession as it were.
E-books are a tremendous asset and there is so much potential.

The wiki has numerous resources listed, web, books, videos. Delve into them.
When I was a boy, I had the occasion to be exposed to sports writers and radio hosts who had tremendous linguistic skills. Thus I wore out my dictionary, looking up words, then the words within the definition, hence building as I went. The point being, keep learning, consult multiple sources and so on.

I have a few shelves of bowling books, some excellent, some not, but there was something to learn from each. I also latched on to what ever video I could.

We have threads here that have user reviews of educational media, the wiki references them. That's some good information. Any media that Gary Parsons has reviewed will give you the opinion of an EXPERT. GuruU2 is his member name, if I recall correctly.

One of the writers for BTM over the years is was Susie Minshew. I recently bought her e-book on coaching. While it's in essence a compendium of her writings, they are neatly and cohesively bundled, maybe not every last one, but a very good aggregation of WISDOM.
I chose WISDOM, because what she wrote transcends knowledge.
I'm half way through. I will give a full review of my OPINION once I've been through it.
I can say though that what she wrote in frames that I've read so far deals with people skills and the art of teaching, not teaching bowling, but teaching. I think Susie would make an excellent teacher of other things as well. She has a gift, good sense, she cares about people. Hey Susie, run for office, why don't ya ...

I'm one of those obsessive folks that wants to know why and so on.

If you were building a robotic ball, you would certainly have a need to know a lot more than building your bowling skills per se.

An old anecdote about Pete Weber, he went to the truck to have a ball drilled, they asked him how he wanted it laid out. He said just put three holes in it, I'll figure out how to make it work. Granted equipment in that era was a lot simpler, but still he was saying, I know how to bowl well and I will make it work ...

For more scientific explanations try getting in touch with people who design bowling balls
They will be conversant with chemistry and physics. They may give you references that suit your level of need.

As you bowl, video yourself and vocalize your comments and observations and feel.
That may foster a body/mind/environment connection.

Walter Ray Williams Jr. Has a degree in physics, if he still has a website, send him a note

Bowling is not simple, but it's very easy to get analysis paralysis.


I use a hand held device, so my posts are not works of art or graphically aesthetic.

Happy hunting!

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 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:37 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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Thanks MegaMav and kajmk.

I have actually already read most of the wiki here, because i dodn't want to ask something that has been answered before or even many times. The Pin Carry Study was suggested from another member as well, but as i said, it takes into consideration lane construction mainly.

I am currently interested only in things i can control or affect. That is why i am wondering about when it is best for the ball to hit the pins.

From all the things i read so far, if i understood correctly (not English native), the ball should hit the pins after it stops hooking, but not much after because then it starts loosing too much energy. I was wondering if any test has been done on this, as i describe on my previous post.


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 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:07 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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TheJesus wrote:
From all the things i read so far, if i understood correctly (not English native), the ball should hit the pins after it stops hooking, but not much after because then it starts loosing too much energy. I was wondering if any test has been done on this, as i describe on my previous post.


I dont concern myself with the ball rolling for too long. If the ball rolls excessively early you will lose entry angle, not force.
If the lane is flat, the ball slows down from air resistance and friction, which isnt much in the roll phase.
As you can imagine it takes a long time for something heavy with momentum to slow down and reduce force.
Once a ball is rolling without rotation the ball is no longer slipping.

I am not aware of any formal study on this, but it would be measured with CATS.
Seeing good entry angle, position in the pocket and roll phase is good enough for me.

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