Board index » Mo & Friends » General Discussion


Forum rules


Ask Mo Pinel and the bowling industry's best your questions, and get straight answers.
This forum is moderated exclusively by Mo & Friends.



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:56 pm Post Number: #21 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: December 17, 2016
Posts: 75
Reputation: 10
Reputation Power: 1
MegaMav wrote:

I dont concern myself with the ball rolling for too long. If the ball rolls excessively early you will lose entry angle, not force.
If the lane is flat, the ball slows down from air resistance and friction, which isnt much in the roll phase.
As you can imagine it takes a long time for something heavy with momentum to slow down and reduce force.
Once a ball is rolling without rotation the ball is no longer slipping.

I am not aware of any formal study on this, but it would be measured with CATS.
Seeing good entry angle, position in the pocket and roll phase is good enough for me.


Technically you will loose some force the longer the ball is in the roll phase because after the ball enters the roll phase it starts to loose rev rate. But if that amount of rev rate lost is enough to create any actual perceived difference in carry beyond the lower entry angle is the question...Mo Pinel may have insight on that.

Where longer roll phase does matter though is with people that have low tilt...which I believe TheJesus does have low tilt. The lower your tilt is the shorter your roll phase is before the ball rolls out as most of us know.

Carry is all physics as was discussed earlier...but one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that a large part of it is the gyroscopic force the ball is creating. The higher that is the less deflection you will see which equals better carry. Part of what increases the gyroscopic force is increased rev rate and also stronger PSA's. So the earlier the ball hits the pins while in the hook phase the weaker the gyroscopic force is as it gets stronger as the balls rev rate increases and as the ball gets closer to it's preferred spin axis.

I also don't know of any published tests like what you are looking for...but if you can get in touch with Mo Pinel I'm sure he's seen some info on that and may be able to/willing to help.

_________________
PAP 5x1 1/8
15.5mph off hand
260-270rev rate
7* tilt
70* rotation


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:37 pm Post Number: #22 Post
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2007
Posts: 3899
Location: Malta, NY
Reputation: 861
Reputation Power: 9
bfweld wrote:
Technically you will loose some force the longer the ball is in the roll phase because after the ball enters the roll phase it starts to loose rev rate.


If there is no slip or rotation during the roll phase, how is a ball losing rev rate beyond air resistance and mechanical friction from the ball rolling forward on the lane surface which isnt frictionless? Is there a force im not aware of acting on the ball to slow it down? Is the lane uphill?

_________________
Please press the Image button if you feel I've been helpful.

“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:03 pm Post Number: #23 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: July 14, 2017
Posts: 16
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
@bfweld : your description helped even more, thank you. I do have a low tilt, basically my specs look like yours but i have more speed. It's just that i sometimes am not sure about some terms. (like gyroscopic force, which i have never heard outside of bowling). It is hard for me to contact mr.Pinel, i just hope he reads some of these. (unless he answers stuff via email and his email is public).

@MegaMav : You said "If the ball rolls excessively early you will lose entry angle, not force.".

Let's say we have a bowler with 90 Axis Rotation, and a pearl ball, drilled for max skid/snap reaction.
He throws the ball out to the 1 board, and the ball quickly turns and faces the pocket early. Does he have more hitting power than if he did the same thing in a parallel line to the left ? Meaning the ball now has a breakpoint not in the 1 board, but in the 10th board (so closer to the pocket, so less time for the ball to roll out). But both shots would pass from the same diagonal line towards the pocket, having the same entry angle. (i wish i could draw this to explain it).


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:22 pm Post Number: #24 Post
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2007
Posts: 3899
Location: Malta, NY
Reputation: 861
Reputation Power: 9
If both have the same entry angle or "parallel path" to the pocket.
If the "1 board" ball strikes, the "10 board" ball would not, it would be left of the headpin.
Im not sure what you're getting at. To strike from further in on the lane you sacrifice entry angle in most cases.

_________________
Please press the Image button if you feel I've been helpful.

“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:28 pm Post Number: #25 Post
Offline
Certified Coach
User avatar

Joined: October 25, 2010
Posts: 2855
Location: Sun City Arizona
Reputation: 557
Reputation Power: 6
T-J, you communicate very well in English.

Since you know the questions you've asked, have they all been answered?
Just wondering.
I don't recall all of them, but in looking at the original number 5, does more power mean better carry, the answer is not all the time.
There is such a thing as too much power.

One reason the pros are so good is they are more consistent in doing what they plan on doing. Speed control and accuracy being 2 of the main attributes. Sort of a read and react thing. Earlier in response I mentioned Amelleto Monacelli purposely throwing roll out shots with an extreme angle of entry. He was using an extreme angle of entry (more power) coupled with a weaker hitting ball, in essence an equation to get a strike. This is something Bo Burton commented on during the telecast.
He also used a term "too much toy", in essence too much power.
I borrowed and parodied the term "terrible twos" denoting a phase of child growth, my version is "terrible toos" denoting too much or too little.

The elite bowler's look to see what a given lane/condition rewards or penalized.
Does it favor high hits, light hits, does the lane topography make the reaction belie the oil pattern. So they read and react and command more attributes of delivery the way a good baseball pitcher commands different pitches.

So, sometimes less IS more.

Cheerio

_________________
Comparison is the thief of joy.

http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html

"Democracy dies in darkness"
"An ever vigilant press is the guardian of a free society."
E-books are convenient, but easily changed or removed.
John


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:35 am Post Number: #26 Post
Offline
Certified Coach

Joined: February 15, 2016
Posts: 489
Reputation: 78
Reputation Power: 1
I had a unique experience yesterday, and I thought that this would be a good chance to share it. I bowled senior pot games, and had the opportunity to cross with Ron Mohr, former winner of the Senior U.S. Open, and nearing 30 years as a member of Team USA. We also bowled with one of the top league bowlers in Southern Nevada. Both of these bowlers average in excess of 230 on a house shot. While both of them scored in excess of 230 nearly every game, watching their ball motions was eye-opening to say the least.

When Ron's ball entered the one-three pocket, it was like an explosion! High pocket hits that would have left an ugly split if thrown by a house bowler just obliterated the pins. While the league bowler's scores were just as high on the house shot, you could literally see and hear the difference in the way the balls hit the pins. The main thing that I saw as the difference between the two bowlers was the fact that Ron kept his ball in the oil for much longer than the league bowler. The retention of energy that resulted was obvious.

The difference between these two bowlers on a house shot in terms of score was not much. In the recent Senior U.S. Open, however, Ron Mohr was in the top 20 as usual, while the league bowler was in the bottom 1/4 of the field. The moral of the story is that if you want to see what the ball should look like as it transitions from skid, to hook, to roll, watch the pros... preferably in person, but on TV, You-Tube, or X-tra Frame if that's all that's available to you.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:18 am Post Number: #27 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: December 17, 2016
Posts: 75
Reputation: 10
Reputation Power: 1
MegaMav wrote:

If there is no slip or rotation during the roll phase, how is a ball losing rev rate beyond air resistance and mechanical friction from the ball rolling forward on the lane surface which isnt frictionless? Is there a force im not aware of acting on the ball to slow it down? Is the lane uphill?


MegaMav - That's the only forces I know of...but I do believe there is still some "slip" from rev rate when the ball is in the roll phase, at least depending on the rev rate...obviously lower rev rates there probably isn't any. I also said that the amount you loose may not be much nor enough to make too much if any difference...but it does happen, quoted that piece of info from something Mo Pinel said recently. He had mentioned something about how much the rev rate increases by the time the ball finishes the hook phase using I think 250 or so as his base he said the rev rate increases to 350+ or more...I don't recall the exact numbers he gave as an example, and the part about the rev rate decreasing once the ball enters the roll phase was part of what he said.

_________________
PAP 5x1 1/8
15.5mph off hand
260-270rev rate
7* tilt
70* rotation


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:31 am Post Number: #28 Post
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2007
Posts: 3899
Location: Malta, NY
Reputation: 861
Reputation Power: 9
bfweld wrote:
MegaMav - That's the only forces I know of...but I do believe there is still some "slip" from rev rate when the ball is in the roll phase, at least depending on the rev rate...obviously lower rev rates there probably isn't any. I also said that the amount you loose may not be much nor enough to make too much if any difference...but it does happen, quoted that piece of info from something Mo Pinel said recently. He had mentioned something about how much the rev rate increases by the time the ball finishes the hook phase using I think 250 or so as his base he said the rev rate increases to 350+ or more...I don't recall the exact numbers he gave as an example, and the part about the rev rate decreasing once the ball enters the roll phase was part of what he said.


I've read and heard him misquoted too many times to believe "I think" and "I dont recall".
Not trying to be a dick here, I've just seen it too many times.
There is no slip in the roll phase. The travel of the ball on the lane is equal to the track flare distance in the roll phase, otherwise it would be in the hook phase and the ball would be slipping. Meaning the travel of the ball on the lane is greater than that of the distance of track flare on the ball.

I will say it is possible to have slip with 0* rotation but it would have to be in the front of the lane on the oil and less than 27 revolutions start to finish. Once it leaves the oil it will rev up and match the speed of the ball with revolutions to cause no slip due to friction.

_________________
Please press the Image button if you feel I've been helpful.

“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:11 am Post Number: #29 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: July 14, 2017
Posts: 16
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
MegaMav wrote:
If both have the same entry angle or "parallel path" to the pocket.
If the "1 board" ball strikes, the "10 board" ball would not, it would be left of the headpin.
Im not sure what you're getting at. To strike from further in on the lane you sacrifice entry angle in most cases.

I'm trying to determine, when ALL other variables are constant, at which part of which phase, does the ball have the best % to strike (given a steady ideal entry angle on all cases).

Ofcourse in actuality we don't have a steady entry angle all the time, i understand that. But at least if we assume it, we can then determine when the ball is best to hit the pins.

Is it just when it is finishing the hook phase ?
Is it after it finishes the hook phase? And if so , how much of a time window is ideal?
I ask this because from what i heard mr.Pinel say, it seemed like it didn't matter how much AFTER the hook phase the ball hit the pins. Just as long as it is after. (in a roll, with 0 axis rotation). So i want to clear this.

Unless, it is physically impossible to have an ideal (6 degree perhaps) angle to the pins, AND have a ball roll out too early. In that case, we could just talk about entry angle and not talk about hook/roll phase since anything in the hook phase will not have 6 degrees of angle so there's your bad carry reason.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:22 am Post Number: #30 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: July 14, 2017
Posts: 16
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
RobMautner wrote:
I had a unique experience yesterday, and I thought that this would be a good chance to share it. I bowled senior pot games, and had the opportunity to cross with Ron Mohr, former winner of the Senior U.S. Open, and nearing 30 years as a member of Team USA. We also bowled with one of the top league bowlers in Southern Nevada. Both of these bowlers average in excess of 230 on a house shot. While both of them scored in excess of 230 nearly every game, watching their ball motions was eye-opening to say the least.

When Ron's ball entered the one-three pocket, it was like an explosion! High pocket hits that would have left an ugly split if thrown by a house bowler just obliterated the pins. While the league bowler's scores were just as high on the house shot, you could literally see and hear the difference in the way the balls hit the pins. The main thing that I saw as the difference between the two bowlers was the fact that Ron kept his ball in the oil for much longer than the league bowler. The retention of energy that resulted was obvious.

The difference between these two bowlers on a house shot in terms of score was not much. In the recent Senior U.S. Open, however, Ron Mohr was in the top 20 as usual, while the league bowler was in the bottom 1/4 of the field. The moral of the story is that if you want to see what the ball should look like as it transitions from skid, to hook, to roll, watch the pros... preferably in person, but on TV, You-Tube, or X-tra Frame if that's all that's available to you.

Thanks for the info ! And this is what comes as logical to me. But now i hear the ball hits better after it stops hooking. In my understanding, if it stops hooking, it rolls end over end on it's preffered axis, with 0 axis rotation, and has already lost a lot of energy.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:31 pm Post Number: #31 Post
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2007
Posts: 3899
Location: Malta, NY
Reputation: 861
Reputation Power: 9
TheJesus wrote:
it seemed like it didn't matter how much AFTER the hook phase the ball hit the pins. Just as long as it is after. (in a roll, with 0 axis rotation).


Go with that. It would take a 100ft lane to slow the ball down enough to make a difference.
An extra 5 revolutions is not going to slow the ball down much.

_________________
Please press the Image button if you feel I've been helpful.

“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:04 pm Post Number: #32 Post
Offline
Certified Coach

Joined: February 15, 2016
Posts: 489
Reputation: 78
Reputation Power: 1
[/quote]Thanks for the info ! And this is what comes as logical to me. But now i hear the ball hits better after it stops hooking. In my understanding, if it stops hooking, it rolls end over end on it's preffered axis, with 0 axis rotation, and has already lost a lot of energy.[/quote]

My reason for giving this example was to demonstrate the difference between the roll of a professional and the roll of a league bowler. Yes, the ball hits better after it stops hooking and just begins to roll. That's what I saw Ron's ball doing differently than the league bowler. The league bowler's ball got into a roll much sooner which works okay on a house shot, but on a pro shot not so much. I think that it's very easy to get so engrossed in the physics involved that we forget that the ultimate goal is to knock down as many pins as possible.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:35 pm Post Number: #33 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: July 14, 2017
Posts: 16
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
Thanks guys, you really helped :)

Also, today i stumbled on this , which was a weird USBC video..you'll see why once you listen to the claims, and read the 3-4 posts below it.



Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:10 pm Post Number: #34 Post
Offline
Certified Coach
User avatar

Joined: October 25, 2010
Posts: 2855
Location: Sun City Arizona
Reputation: 557
Reputation Power: 6
TheJesus wrote:
Thanks guys, you really helped :)

Also, today i stumbled on this , which was a weird USBC video..you'll see why once you listen to the claims, and read the 3-4 posts below


I've seen that video. Years before that, I saw/read a test with a manually placed ramp.
One of the points was given sufficient angle even light balls struck a lot.
I do not know the range of weights used but have seen 12 pound balls strike a LOT when they hit from extreme angles. Obviously a ball that bounces off or is repelled by the pins will be challenged. I'm reminded of a team mate in a lunch and bowl league at ASU roll a 248 with an 8 pound plastic ball. She was a right handed and had a lot of ball speed.
Several of her strikes hit the 1-3-6-10 and struck. Moon and Stars in the right place?
Then there is the Asian Spinner method and they do strike.
I will bet there was more data gathered in that USBC study that was not spoken of or detailed in the video.
I've seen very light balls strike. Weight is only one variable.
Consider a light ball rolled thumbless, it can strike. Frequency is another issue.
With the myriad of variables, many not even mentioned, no matter how theoretically well the ball is propelled, it most likely will not strike every time.
There is an old quip about funny things can happen when round things hit round things (alluding to the curvature of the pins).

The Dick Weber book had a diagram that subdivided the pocket and head pin.
Yes a different era, but the geometry is the same, though the environment and components are much more conducive to scoring.

This thread has a copy of the diagram from the Weber book.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10103&p=78499&hilit=Dick+Weber#p78499

Anyone who thinks bowling is simple, might be impressed if they availed themself of the science of this sport.

The business has for the most part made a travesty of the sport. In fact, some might say they've made it a non-sport ...

_________________
Comparison is the thief of joy.

http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html

"Democracy dies in darkness"
"An ever vigilant press is the guardian of a free society."
E-books are convenient, but easily changed or removed.
John


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:54 am Post Number: #35 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: December 17, 2016
Posts: 75
Reputation: 10
Reputation Power: 1
TheJesus wrote:
I'm trying to determine, when ALL other variables are constant, at which part of which phase, does the ball have the best % to strike (given a steady ideal entry angle on all cases).

Ofcourse in actuality we don't have a steady entry angle all the time, i understand that. But at least if we assume it, we can then determine when the ball is best to hit the pins.

Is it just when it is finishing the hook phase ?
Is it after it finishes the hook phase? And if so , how much of a time window is ideal?
I ask this because from what i heard mr.Pinel say, it seemed like it didn't matter how much AFTER the hook phase the ball hit the pins. Just as long as it is after. (in a roll, with 0 axis rotation). So i want to clear this.

Unless, it is physically impossible to have an ideal (6 degree perhaps) angle to the pins, AND have a ball roll out too early. In that case, we could just talk about entry angle and not talk about hook/roll phase since anything in the hook phase will not have 6 degrees of angle so there's your bad carry reason.

TheJesus I think I know what you were getting at there but there is too many variables to really think of it that way and still be realistic. If you are using the same ball you would most likely need to play a different line, in other words the ball thrown inside you would need to be standing further left playing a different line out to the 10board area for it to still hit pocket unless there is a major difference in the oil pattern length and volume between the 1 and 10board.

Forget about entry angle for a minute...the best time for the ball to hit pocket is right as/right after it enters the roll phase, that's when it is creating the highest amount of gyroscopic force/inertia. Simplest way I can think of to explain gyroscopic force is if you have say a large wheel or something...if it is rotating at a rapid pace about a certain axis though it's center, it is naturally going to try and "resist" any change in direction. So put in bowling ball terms the core is spinning about an axis and the faster it is spinning the more gyroscopic force it is creating therefore the more it will try and resist any change in direction...so if you combine that with the friction the balls coverstock creates on the lane you get a ball that doesn't want to be pushed off of it's direction of motion which equals less deflection off of the pins......short answer is you want to have the beginning of the roll phase as close to the pocket as possible while also looking to maintain the best entry angle possible.


MegaMav wrote:

I've read and heard him misquoted too many times to believe "I think" and "I dont recall".
Not trying to be a dick here, I've just seen it too many times.
There is no slip in the roll phase. The travel of the ball on the lane is equal to the track flare distance in the roll phase, otherwise it would be in the hook phase and the ball would be slipping. Meaning the travel of the ball on the lane is greater than that of the distance of track flare on the ball.

I will say it is possible to have slip with 0* rotation but it would have to be in the front of the lane on the oil and less than 27 revolutions start to finish. Once it leaves the oil it will rev up and match the speed of the ball with revolutions to cause no slip due to friction.

MegaMav you can doubt it if you'd like, that doesn't bother me...but I recall the basis of what he said because I was surprised by the difference in the numbers he used...I just don't remember the exact numbers.
The question I would ask then is since we know a balls rev rate increases through the hook phase......on average how much does it increase?

_________________
PAP 5x1 1/8
15.5mph off hand
260-270rev rate
7* tilt
70* rotation


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hook phase, Roll phase, Carry, Hitting power.
 Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:36 pm Post Number: #36 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: July 14, 2017
Posts: 16
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
bfweld wrote:
Forget about entry angle for a minute...the best time for the ball to hit pocket is right as/right after it enters the roll phase, that's when it is creating the highest amount of gyroscopic force/inertia. Simplest way I can think of to explain gyroscopic force is if you have say a large wheel or something...if it is rotating at a rapid pace about a certain axis though it's center, it is naturally going to try and "resist" any change in direction. So put in bowling ball terms the core is spinning about an axis and the faster it is spinning the more gyroscopic force it is creating therefore the more it will try and resist any change in direction...so if you combine that with the friction the balls coverstock creates on the lane you get a ball that doesn't want to be pushed off of it's direction of motion which equals less deflection off of the pins......short answer is you want to have the beginning of the roll phase as close to the pocket as possible while also looking to maintain the best entry angle possible.
That is a very nice description sir and it sure helps ! Thank you ! :)


also @kajmk , thanks for your input :)


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Board index » Mo & Friends » General Discussion


 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: