finding rev rate

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cheech
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finding rev rate

Post by cheech »

i recently changed my grip and found all my new specs. new PAP using armadillo and piece of tape method. axis tilt using track circumference. i am having trouble finding my rev rate. i have not measured it in about 7 years. i looked at the formula and im not able to play video with frame by frame. i was however able to measure revolutions for the length of the lane. on average my shots had 14 revolutions in 2-2.5seconds. is it accurate to calculate rev rate with out frame by frame video and that formula. is it accurate to calculate it by 14revs/2s=Xrevs/60s which would come out to be 420RPM? if that is not accurate is it possible to calculate rev rate without playing back video with frame by frame?
ryan chinnici
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PAP-4 1/8 x 1/8 up
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RPM 395
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when in doubt.....throw a vibe!
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snick
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by snick »

I use this tool for rev-rate
http://www.bowlingitrc.com/tools/
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by BreadNbutterShot »

IMO you can calculate your rev rate with full length of the track. But remember it is affected by friction etc. Maybe you could ask some of your friend to record couple shots with their mobile phone (best frame rate available) and send video to you? Then you could use free video editing tool to calculate the frames.
snick wrote:I use this tool for rev-rate
http://www.bowlingitrc.com/tools/
I have seen this "Release ratio" term earlier but couldn't find information about it. Doe's some one have good insights for that number what it should be?
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by VLe »

You can not calculate your release RPM using the amount of revs on the full lane. The rev rate rises all the way until the ball is in the roll phase.

I calculate rev's using the slow motion camera (120fps) on my iPad. It is possible to use "normal" frame rates also, but it is easier with slow motion.

Put a piece of white tape close to pap, then throw the ball and film the shot. With the Hudl Technique app (ex-ubersence, free program) I can rewind the video to the point where the ball exit from hand. I can then tap the video timer and it will reset the timer to 0.00s. Then I'll forward the video until there has been three full revolutions, measure the time and calculate the revs.

Formula for this calculation is: 60/(Xseconds/revs)
Example using three revolutions in 0.56s: 60/(0.56/3)=321RPM

Even when done quickly I can easily measure time at least within 0.02s margin of error and I've found it accurate enough. 0,02s in the 300RPM range means about 10revs.
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VLe
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by VLe »

BreadNbutterShot wrote:I have seen this "Release ratio" term earlier but couldn't find information about it. Doe's some one have good insights for that number what it should be?
There is many ways to skin a cat. Basically you can alter this ratio by changing your release or ball speed. The problem is that since we can alter on how quickly the tilt&rotation burn's off by different layouts and ball choices for the specific bowler, how much value does the ratio have?
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by bowl1820 »

BreadNbutterShot wrote: I have seen this "Release ratio" term earlier but couldn't find information about it. Doe's some one have good insights for that number what it should be?
The release ratio is explained in this video starting at the 37 min. mark.

You should watch both the "Axis Tilt and Rotation" and "rpm" sections along with the release ratio, because they are connected.

[youtube][/youtube]

Understanding Ball Motion to elevate your game
contents
  1. Finding your PAP
  2. Initial PAP, Midlane PAP, Final PAP
  3. Roll Tape ( Roll Tracer)
  4. Ball Motion and Lane Play
  5. Entry Angle
  6. Burn Up or Burn Out
  7. Axis Tilt and Rotation
  8. Release ratio
  9. RPM
  10. Hardness of lane surfaces
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."
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snick
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by snick »

the itrc rev-rate calculator will give you the initial rev-rate, based on the speed of the first full revolution.
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cheech
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by cheech »

VLe wrote:
Put a piece of white tape close to pap, then throw the ball and film the shot. With the Hudl Technique app (ex-ubersence, free program) I can rewind the video to the point where the ball exit from hand. I can then tap the video timer and it will reset the timer to 0.00s. Then I'll forward the video until there has been three full revolutions, measure the time and calculate the revs.
.
ill try that app out thanks for the suggestioni have video at 240fps but i just dont have a player that can go frame by frame or advance by hundreths of a sec. ill let you guys know what i calculate.
ryan chinnici
sacred heart university class of 2013
PAP-4 1/8 x 1/8 up
speed-18 (off hand)
RPM 395
tilt 10*
axis rotation *
when in doubt.....throw a vibe!
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by Bowlin4Beers »

cheech wrote:
ill try that app out thanks for the suggestioni have video at 240fps but i just dont have a player that can go frame by frame or advance by hundreths of a sec. ill let you guys know what i calculate.

There are all sorts of free frame by frame players out there. QuickTime was one although it's been shelved by Apple now.
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by flibblesh »

Bowlin4Beers wrote:

There are all sorts of free frame by frame players out there. QuickTime was one although it's been shelved by Apple now.
Shelved because it was terrible. I recommend VLC as it can play pretty much any file you throw at it. To play frame by frame, you pause the video and press "e" to play each frame.
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Rev Rate: Roughly 300
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by Bowlin4Beers »

flibblesh wrote:
Shelved because it was terrible. I recommend VLC as it can play pretty much any file you throw at it. To play frame by frame, you pause the video and press "e" to play each frame.

It did its job well for 25 years for those that used it. But it was just too vulnerable in the 21st century. Haven't used it myself since like the late 90s. The wiki should probably be updated since it uses QT as its example ;)
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by VLe »

cheech wrote: ill try that app out thanks for the suggestioni have video at 240fps but i just dont have a player that can go frame by frame or advance by hundreths of a sec. ill let you guys know what i calculate.
There are also many similar programs available, I'm just used to that program myself. I'll do all the analyzation with it.

Another reason why I speak to using the time calculation instead of frame calculation is that it takes me about 20 seconds standing on the lane side with my mobile device to calculate the revs after each throw. If I use frame calculation and measure the frames per 1revolution with 60fps camera, it means 11frames=327rpm, 12frames=300rpm and so on. There is really no difference that says the other method is more accurate than the other. At least one method is very easy to do. :)
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PAP 4 3/8" x 0"
60* rotation
17.5* tilt
320-360 rev rate
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cheech
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Positive Axis Point: 3 13/16
Speed: 18 off hand
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Axis Tilt: 7
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Medium Oil Ball: bluevibe, iq tour solid
Light Oil Ball: topical breeze
Preferred Company: columbia 300
Location: rochester, ny

Re: finding rev rate

Post by cheech »

so i calculated my rev rate using the formula and something is wrong. using the HUDL app on average i found 1 revolution took .63sec and 3 revolutions was 1.9 sec. this would equal 95 RPM....obviously something is wrong but i dont know what.
ryan chinnici
sacred heart university class of 2013
PAP-4 1/8 x 1/8 up
speed-18 (off hand)
RPM 395
tilt 10*
axis rotation *
when in doubt.....throw a vibe!
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by JohnP »

The calculation is right, so there are only two things that can be wrong, the time measurement or the rev measurement. I suspect it's the time, how did you get that value? -- JohnP
cheech
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Positive Axis Point: 3 13/16
Speed: 18 off hand
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Axis Tilt: 7
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Medium Oil Ball: bluevibe, iq tour solid
Light Oil Ball: topical breeze
Preferred Company: columbia 300
Location: rochester, ny

Re: finding rev rate

Post by cheech »

JohnP wrote:The calculation is right, so there are only two things that can be wrong, the time measurement or the rev measurement. I suspect it's the time, how did you get that value? -- JohnP
i used the hudl app. i stopped the video when the ball left my fingers (79.33seconds) and advanced until the tape went around 3 full revolutions and stopped the video (81.17 seconds) for a time of 1.84 seconds for 3 revolutions. using the calculation this would equal 97.8 RPM. i will try to upload the video but i dont know how helpful it will be considering it is without a super slow motion video player.


edit: the counter at the bottom of the video player i assumed was counting by seconds of video but going back to the video in my video player (not the hudl app) the videos are less than 30 seconds long. this must mean the "timer" in the app is going by frames?

so if that is the case 3 revolutions in 184 frames. with 240 fps that would equal 3revolutions in .76666 seconds. this would only equal 237.1 RPM which also doesnt make sense.

now i realized what the app did was slow the entire video down to 240fps instead of just the section where i threw the ball effectively making a 28 second video at 60fps to 112 seconds at 240fps (4x longer) SO.....1.84 seconds at 240fps would equal 0.46 seconds in real time. this would make the equation 60/(.46/3)=391RPM

im sorry to make this long and confusing for everyone not named ryan chinnici. i felt the need to type and do the work by hand as i worked the problem out. in the end i think the last sequence is the accurate calculation to my rev rate. last time i was measured 7 years ago we got 395 RPM and i felt like my rev rate stayed the same or even went up but numbers dont lie. 4 RPM i feel like is a negligible margin of error if there is any error in my process. the difference im seeing in ball reaction and hook shape/dynamics is most likely attributed to my immensely improved cleaner release creating better projection down the lane.

thanks to JohnP and everyone else who took an interest in helping me and provided formulas and info.
ryan chinnici
sacred heart university class of 2013
PAP-4 1/8 x 1/8 up
speed-18 (off hand)
RPM 395
tilt 10*
axis rotation *
when in doubt.....throw a vibe!
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by bowl1820 »

I've been experimenting, trying the different methods of calculating the rpm's.

Using a test video.

I've tried counting the rotations as the ball goes down the lane. (gave a result that was 450 rpm.)

Example (this is a new video from Storm to use with their new Matchmaker app page.)
[youtube][/youtube]

I then tried the USBC method that uses counting 10 frames & how many hours the ball turns (1 rotation = 12 hours). (This method resulted in 420 rpm)
http://bowl.com/Source/Source_Home/What ... Rev_Rate_/

I then tried the ITRC rev calculator, where you count how many frames it take for 1 revolution. (This method resulted in 450 rpm.)
http://www.bowlingitrc.com/tools/

I then tried the wiki method. (This method resulted in a 427 rpm.)
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... e_Rev_Rate

So the 4 methods produced result's that ranged from 420 to 450 rpm's for the same video.

IMO Whichever method is easier for you to do, produces about the same results as long as your as accurate as you can be in your timing and counting.

So Check your rpms over several shots, average them and you should be close enough.
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by JohnP »

Cheech - You're welcome, glad to help. You did a good job of trouble shooting. -- JohnP
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by LookingForALeftyWall »

Not to highjack this thread but something weird is going on in the Storm rev rate video that's imbedded in bowl1820's post - either the speed calculation is wrong or the speed at which the video is being played back is wrong. Starting at 0:36, a graphic in the video states that the bowler's ball from release to pins is 2.15 seconds. I tried to independently verify this by using my own stop watch and have come up with 2.51-2.55 consistently. That would change the bowler's rev rate to about 425 instead of 490 - which makes more sense to me based on my understanding of ball motion. So either the speed calculation in the Storm video is off. Or they did not calibrate the video to play back in regular speed properly. Perhaps they transposed the 5 and the 1, so instead of 2.51 they put in 2.15. It's just weird...
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by bowl1820 »

LookingForALeftyWall wrote:Not to highjack this thread but something weird is going on in the Storm rev rate video that's imbedded in bowl1820's post - either the speed calculation is wrong or the speed at which the video is being played back is wrong. Starting at 0:36, a graphic in the video states that the bowler's ball from release to pins is 2.15 seconds. I tried to independently verify this by using my own stop watch and have come up with 2.51-2.55 consistently. That would change the bowler's rev rate to about 425 instead of 490 - which makes more sense to me based on my understanding of ball motion. So either the speed calculation in the Storm video is off. Or they did not calibrate the video to play back in regular speed properly. Perhaps they transposed the 5 and the 1, so instead of 2.51 they put in 2.15. It's just weird...
The thing about youtube videos is when original gets uploaded they can get altered slightly by youtube processing which can affect playback speed.

The video says it 52 sec long, timing it with my stopwatch the video plays for 53 sec. 1 sec is enough to throw it off.

Also the shot they showed might not be the one goes with the timer they over layed on it.

plus it depends on how quick on the trigger you are with a stopwatch (they might have been using some software method to time).

trying it myself I was ranging from 2.2 -2.3 depending on how fast I hit the button.
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VLe
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Re: finding rev rate

Post by VLe »

bowl1820 wrote:The thing about youtube videos is when original gets uploaded they can get altered slightly by youtube processing which can affect playback speed.
I downloaded the storm-video and measured the release rpm to be around 400rpm's. Dont know how big is the youtube-effect on this.
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PAP 4 3/8" x 0"
60* rotation
17.5* tilt
320-360 rev rate
17mph off hand
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