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 Post subject: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:19 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Mo Pinel
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I'm posting this as an interesting story. Two week's ago, Chuck Gardner, Brunswick's PBA Tour representative and my good friend, called me to ask for assistance in designing a layout for his players for the Math Roth PBA plastic ball tournament. Each player was given two Mark Roth plastic balls to use for the tournament. These balls were provided by OnTheBall Bowling for the tournament. They were traditional, pancake weight block, polyester balls. I told Chuck that I'd consult my CAD expert, MathIsTruth. Steve did the CAD work and modeled the drilled plastic ball. We were trying to design a layout that would maximize the diffs. of the drilled ball. After some detailed work, we discovered we could maximize the diffs. of the drilled ball by placing the center of the pancake weight block 4" from the PAP, 45* to the VAL and placing the balance hole at the intersection of a line drawn from the center of the bowler's grip thru the center of the pancake weight block and the VAL. At first, Steve and I thought the center of the weight block should be placed 3 3/8" from the PAP to maximize the diffs. WRONG ANSWER! Because the low RG axis moved right when the ball was drilled (contrary to what some uneducated individuals think), we found that placing the center of the weight block 4" from the PAP resulted in maximizing the diffs. of the drilled ball.

The results are in! The winner, amateur Brian Zeisig, and Walter Ray Williams, Jr. both used the layout. Can I say conclusively that the results were because of the layout? Absolutely not! That would be absurd! But, do I think that the layout played a part in the results? I think so, but you decide for yourself. You can see the video about the ball layout and the interview with the champion on the home page of pba.com and clicking on the white Xtra Frame arrow. Enjoy!

The point of this story is that thorough research and collaboration between interested parties can bear fruit and yield positive results. Great work, Steve and good job, Chuck! I'm glad I could help.

Yours truly,
Mo


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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:38 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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OUTSTANDING information Mo! Thanks for posting this


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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:39 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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That is very interesting Mo, thanks for sharing the info.


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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:54 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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I was just listening to Xtra Frame where Chuck Gardner gave props to Mo for the layout.

Good stuff Mo!!!


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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:35 am Post Number: #5 Post
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It's nice when a plan comes together!

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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:53 am Post Number: #6 Post
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Dummy, me, forgot to post the diffs. of the TV layout!

Undrilled ball: .000 intermediate diff.; .026 total diff.
TV layout (drilled ball): .011 intermediate diff.; .024 total diff; .45 diff. ratio

I feel better, now!


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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:48 am Post Number: #7 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
The point of this story is that thorough research and collaboration between interested parties can bear fruit and yield positive results. Great work, Steve and good job, Chuck! I'm glad I could help.

Yours truly,
Mo


It's nice to know that there are people in the industry who will help for the sake of helping! Great job Mo.

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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:29 am Post Number: #8 Post
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Nice work guys. You worked it like true scientists! You made an assumption to start, did the experiment, and were open minded about the results of the experiment! It's exciting when things turn out NOT as expected in science. :o


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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:40 am Post Number: #9 Post
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ferocious wrote:
Nice work guys. You worked it like true scientists! You made an assumption to start, did the experiment, and were open minded about the results of the experiment! It's exciting when things turn out NOT as expected in science. :o


Thank you so much for your kind comments. Anytime I can impress you is a good day in the life of Mo Pinel! And by the way, your color choice is very appropriate.


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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:53 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
Dummy, me, forgot to post the diffs. of the TV layout!

Undrilled ball: .000 intermediate diff.; .026 total diff.
TV layout (drilled ball): .011 intermediate diff.; .024 total diff; .45 diff. ratio

I feel better, now!



So your goal was to maximize Diff and thereby create more friction by exposing clean ball surface. The finger holes push the low RG axis away from themselves, so the pin needed to be placed farther from the PAP than 3 3/8 to achieve 3 3/8 after drilling. This added extra hook.

You also achieved a moderate Int-Diff and a pretty high diff ratio; how did that affect ball motion?

Was surface roughness constrained by the PBA, or were you able to recommend an optimum surface too?

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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:42 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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RevZiLLa wrote:
Mo Pinel wrote:
Dummy, me, forgot to post the diffs. of the TV layout!

Undrilled ball: .000 intermediate diff.; .026 total diff.
TV layout (drilled ball): .011 intermediate diff.; .024 total diff; .45 diff. ratio

I feel better, now!



So your goal was to maximize Diff and thereby create more friction by exposing clean ball surface. The finger holes push the low RG axis away from themselves, so the pin needed to be placed farther from the PAP than 3 3/8 to achieve 3 3/8 after drilling. This added extra hook.

You also achieved a moderate Int-Diff and a pretty high diff ratio; how did that affect ball motion?

Was surface roughness constrained by the PBA, or were you able to recommend an optimum surface too?


With total diffs. that small, flare was not the big priority. There wasn't going to be much flare anyway. Diff. ratio was the priority to get the ball to transition faster and read the pattern firmer and increase carry percentage. Higher diff. ratios shorten the hook zone and help the ball to transition more easily. Some of the other layouts flared more, but did not transition as fast. Comprendez?


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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:00 am Post Number: #12 Post
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Hi Mo,
Congrats on yet another outstanding achievement.

What size and what depth was the hole?

How would this perform on the international short patterns using older urethane balls such as u-dots?
Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:36 am Post Number: #13 Post
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buffa325 wrote:
Hi Mo,
Congrats on yet another outstanding achievement.

What size and what depth was the hole?

How would this perform on the international short patterns using older urethane balls such as u-dots?
Thanks


I know the hole was 3" deep and the smallest necessary to make the statics legal. There were a few balls used successfully. They had different sized holes based on what each ball required.

Nothing wrong with trying it with older pancake weight block urethane balls. Let me know how it works.


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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:13 am Post Number: #14 Post
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Good job Mo.. Good to see you guys get the props that you and your team deserve.

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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:13 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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I think Steve deserves a raise! :) Great Job Steve, and Mo!

Also I know how much Chuck values your expertise and friendship. At the Brunswick C System 2.5 seminar, we couldnt go a couple minutes without a "MoIsm"

A question though...

I talked to a Multi title PBA player about his opinion on the Plastic ball tournament. An interesting opinion came from him. The PBA tried to push this tournament as "everyone has the same ball, let the skill of the bowler come out on top" but who said that one person's ball did not have more mica in it than someone elses? Wouldn't that cause more more friction, therefor a earlier hook zone?


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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:47 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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MeNoRevs wrote:
I think Steve deserves a raise! :) Great Job Steve, and Mo!

Also I know how much Chuck values your expertise and friendship. At the Brunswick C System 2.5 seminar, we couldnt go a couple minutes without a "MoIsm"

A question though...

I talked to a Multi title PBA player about his opinion on the Plastic ball tournament. An interesting opinion came from him. The PBA tried to push this tournament as "everyone has the same ball, let the skill of the bowler come out on top" but who said that one person's ball did not have more mica in it than someone elses? Wouldn't that cause more more friction, therefor a earlier hook zone?



Hi Meno,

Just my observation, but the tournament was conducted with viz-a-balls. I am sure Mo will correct me here, but I think they are "solid" polyester, no mica.

-rmack

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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:50 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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oops, forgot to tip my hat!

Good work as always Steve & Mo! :ugeek:

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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:03 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
buffa325 wrote:
Hi Mo,
Congrats on yet another outstanding achievement.

What size and what depth was the hole?

How would this perform on the international short patterns using older urethane balls such as u-dots?
Thanks


I know the hole was 3" deep and the smallest necessary to make the statics legal. There were a few balls used successfully. They had different sized holes based on what each ball required.
Nothing wrong with trying it with older pancake weight block urethane balls. Let me know how it works.


Would the same answer apply to entry level reactive resin balls with pancake blocks and/or pancakes with a flip block? -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:57 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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JohnP wrote:
Mo Pinel wrote:
buffa325 wrote:
Hi Mo,
Congrats on yet another outstanding achievement.

What size and what depth was the hole?

How would this perform on the international short patterns using older urethane balls such as u-dots?
Thanks


I know the hole was 3" deep and the smallest necessary to make the statics legal. There were a few balls used successfully. They had different sized holes based on what each ball required.
Nothing wrong with trying it with older pancake weight block urethane balls. Let me know how it works.


Would the same answer apply to entry level reactive resin balls with pancake blocks and/or pancakes with a flip block? -- JohnP


Might depend on the densities of the materials in the core and cover to be exact?


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 Post subject: Re: PBA Plastic Ball TV Winner's Layout
 Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:43 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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So would you say that this layout would create the most dynamics in a plastic pancake core ball over your previous recommendation in this other post?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=229&p=1991&hilit=plastic#p1991

I have also heard of a pin/cg at 3 3/8 from the PAP and then a weight hole 9" from center grip through the cg. I heard these created a stronger plastic pancake core ball also.

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