Board index » Mo & Friends » General Discussion


Forum rules


Ask Mo Pinel and the bowling industry's best your questions, and get straight answers.
This forum is moderated exclusively by Mo & Friends.



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 59 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:42 am Post Number: #41 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3167
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 270
Reputation Power: 3
ads wrote:
Longer PAP-PIN looks better for you, doesn't it?

My PAP is over 5". My Optimus Solid has a 3.5" PAP-PIN (next to RF). I guess, together with the coverstock strength (@4000 grit), the ball gives a smooth curve (lazy in my eye), instead of skid snap motion. Increased the MO from 3/4" to 7/8". More noticeable back-end and started to leave 9 pin and some messengers.

Worthwhile trying a 5" PAP-PIN and PIN over ring which is not the suggested layout for my spec?

It all depends on what I am looking for as far as what looks better for me.
The Nail with the 5" pin is the Strongest most Asymmetrical, fastest spin time, of what I have tried.

What I see is the pin to PAP matters. You have to look at what you are creating. You are making the ball Asymmetrical. How is the Asymmetrical layout with its pin to PAP going to match up with your release specs, specifically your tilt.

The Optimus has a goofy core, I would not consider it to be the best candidate for a Motion Hole. It is not Radially Symmetrical. The Optimus has too many voids making the MoHole a bit of a crapshoot for its effectiveness.

As far as using a 5" pin to PAP ball, I think with your specs it would be a good option for you.
Ball choice, I would start with a High differential ball, .050 or greater, with a more rounded shape core (cylindrical). You need to have enough flare to start with. I am not seeing alot of increase in flare with the Motion Holes.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:26 pm Post Number: #42 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 7, 2017
Posts: 93
Location: Lake Geneva WI
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
I have recently drilled a ball for an intended motion hole. It is 16lbs and I drilled it purposely to have a small amount of negative side weight and small amount of finger weight. The reason I did this was because on a previous ball I mo holed I was limited on size of hole because of static weights.

The balls reaction without the motion hole is strange. Will the negetive side weight have an effect on ball motion?

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:43 pm Post Number: #43 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3167
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 270
Reputation Power: 3
Static weight does not have an effect on the ball motion.

What ball and layout did you use?

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:50 pm Post Number: #44 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 7, 2017
Posts: 93
Location: Lake Geneva WI
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
It is a Pathogen X. The same ball I have previously motion holed. A friend threw mine and loved it. So I drilled one for him. Same layouts(pin next to ring) except one is 16 and other 14lb and 16 has a turbo sg thumb and other does not.

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:36 am Post Number: #45 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3167
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 270
Reputation Power: 3
Lledsmarttam wrote:
The balls reaction without the motion hole is strange.

What do you mean by "strange"?

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:53 am Post Number: #46 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 7, 2017
Posts: 93
Location: Lake Geneva WI
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
Honestly I’m not quite sure. It seems like it never revs up. It may just be operator error. Just does not seem to cover the amount of boards that the first one did without the hole.

I am sure it is hard to understand what I mean without video. I am just going to put the motion hole in and cross my fingers!

Thanks Eric

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:02 am Post Number: #47 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3167
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 270
Reputation Power: 3
I would tend to believe it was the lane condition. Unless you are doing a side by side comparison on the same condition it is difficult to compare reactions.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:53 am Post Number: #48 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 7, 2017
Posts: 93
Location: Lake Geneva WI
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
Kindoff is sameconditions. Both were on our Wednesday night league at same house on same shot. But I get what you mean it’s not apples to apples comparison.

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:47 am Post Number: #49 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3167
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 270
Reputation Power: 3
EricHartwell wrote:
I now have 3 balls Motion Holed...

Hammer Nail 5" pin to PAP ............... Motion Hole 1 1/8" x 4"
Hammer Viral Pin in the ring finger .... Motion Hole 1" x 4"
Blue Hammer 3" pin to PAP .............. Motion hole 7/8 "x 4"

The Hammer Nail spin time 5.1 sec, a 3.1 sec improvement and the Drilling angle decreased 8*.
It is serving me well both shiny and dull. Shiny it is working well on a broken down 42" house shot. It is my go to ball at this house when I am bowling inside of 3rd arrow. Dull it is an absolute monster and was too strong for anything other than a fresh condition. I have been trying it on several different conditions in my sport league as well as house shots. I start on 44' London pattern this week. Just put a fresh dull surface, green scotch brite 6 sides, in preparation for it. Will report back on how it preforms on the longer pattern.

The Hammer Viral (spin time 7.5 sec.) started out very skid snappy without the hole. Shiny surface of any kind gave me a very angular hook zone and lots of 9 pin leaves on pocket hits. Dull surface helped but made it lazy in the pocket, lots of flat 10 pins. After the MoHole shiny surface is completely out of the question. It is ridiculously long and angular making it extremely difficult to control. After the hole And dull surface (800-1500) it is giving me an excellent look. It is what I consider to be a Benchmark type reaction and not burning up early.
Nobody believes it is only a 13# ball. In actuality it isn't, weighing only 12# 14 oz. with 2.75 oz top weight. It hits like a truck and throwing lots of messengers
It is the first ball out of my bag for THS.

The Blue Hammer (spin time 8.1 sec) This is an interesting one. Base layout 80-3-45, 4000 grit surface skid snap type reaction. Another ball leaving lots of 9 pins for me. Dull surface (800 grit) improved the carry but took the length away forcing me to play deeper inside the oil line than I would like with urethane taking away my margin for error.
Here is the interesting part, after the MoHole the ball got smoother/weaker. I wish I could have spun it up on the DeTerminator prior to drilling the MoHole. I believe this is due to the Pin to PAP, 3". I was afraid to make the MoHole any larger and killing the reaction any further.
It gives me the best look in my arsenal for short oil sport patterns with it dull (800 grit). Keeping the ball clean was a chore. Using both a leather shammy and by using an approved ball cleaner to keep my reaction and not create carry down.
I am keeping this one at 4000 grit and it is my go to ball for high friction conditions.

With the lack of Asymmetrical choices at 13#'s I will definitely be considering more Motion Hole "experiments" as I fill in a couple of holes in my arsenal.

I am getting to the point where I will not be considering them "experiments."

Added a 4th Motion Hole to the arsenal, 13# Brunswick Edge Pearl Base layout 80-3-40

Well, it is still an experiment. Darn generic light weight cores.

Motion Hole 1 1/8" x 3 3/4" 2.75 oz top weight
The Motion hole barely knicked the core and no noticeable change in ball motion. PSA and spin time, 6.2 sec was unchanged.
But...
When the ball hit the pocket it did Not respect the 3lb 6oz pins at all. It was finishing to the Left of the 8 pin. No deflection at all. In one game of use I left two 4-9 splits, and three 9 pins. The ball was making a left turn while it was going through the pins. In conclusion, it is definitely possible to go to Big with a Motion Hole. I kept making it larger looking for the length, never got the length but the mechanical leverage in the pocket kept getting stronger to the point of to Strong.

I am going to plug and relocate/pitch the Motion Hole to hit more core making sure it is a full 4" in depth. To accommodate this I will need to drill the ring finger deeper. I will also be removing the Switchgrip thumb to drill it deeper as well to remove more core material.

I am hopeful that the drilling of the ring and thumb deeper and relocating the MoHole will create the Asymmetry I am looking for.

Update:
relocated the Motion hole, the whole bit hit it but only for 1/4", still barely hitting the core, 7/8" x 4" top weight 1.5 oz
Ring finger 3 1/2" deep
Middle finger 2 3/4" deep
Was able to drill through the bottom of the switchgrip thumb with 7/8" bit to 4" deep

PSA moved from 3/4" left of the centerline to bottom edge of thumb hole on the centerline, a reduction of 5* on the drilling angle. Flare was reduced and the Spin time increased 1 sec to 7.2 sec. Ball motion was smoothed out and it hooked less. I rolled 2 games with it and only left one 9 pin.

This "experiment" was tp produce a ball down from the Viral. I think it is mission accomplished.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:16 pm Post Number: #50 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: March 3, 2014
Posts: 22
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
Greetings:

I am experimenting with using the motion hole on some balls. I placed the pin beside my ring finger on a plugged Brunswick Slingshot since my PAP is more than 5" over and will report the results when I throw the ball a little more. The PAP on the resulting ball is about 5 1/2 inches over by 1 1/4 inches up (I will check again to confirm this). This gives me a 60 degree VAL angle. I figured the higher VAL angle would help keep the ball from being uncontrollable on the backend.

For my next experiment, I purchased a Fix. I transferred the layout (90? x 3 3/8 x 60) to the Fix and then looked at the drilling instructions and noticed that the Motion hole layout calls for a 30 degree VAL angle. I have not drilled any holes yet. Am I offsetting the benefits of the motion hole with such a large VAL angle? Will I ruin a new ball if I drill it this way?

Kevin

P.S. The drilling instructions on the Wiki never took the vertical component of the PAP into consideration and never mentioned a preferred VAL angle. I read several early threads about the motion hole (40+ pages and hundreds of posts) before I started and read where the pin could be placed up or down from the recommended location (for example - down in the ring finger for a <5 PAP bowler). My most successful layout as of late (on two symmetrical balls) is a control layout of (85?) x 3.5 x 60 so the VAL angle seemed logical. I hoped the motion hole would give the ball more length and more power through the pins. Did I miss something?

_________________
Left handed, 195 ave., 16.5 mph (camera frames), 225 revs (9 revolutions to pin deck), PAP 5 x 1 1/4 up, 15 to 18 deg. tilt, 45 deg. rotation.
Sweetspot: 85 degrees +/- 20 degrees, Benchmark: 45 x 4 x 40


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:51 pm Post Number: #51 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3167
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 270
Reputation Power: 3
This thread is about many different ways the Motion hole is getting used. I for one have tried several different pin locations.

You wwon't ruin the ball. You can always plug the motion hole if you don't like it. The larger Val angle, pin down, is recommended for Rev dominant bowlers. You are on the speed dominant side. Pin up would be the Basic recommendation.
I would recommend using your Benchmark 40* VAL angle. With added length you will want a quicker response to friction to get the ball to turn over and roll beforee it gets to the pocket.
Roll it before you add the hole. You might like it without.

What other balls and layouts are you using?

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:13 am Post Number: #52 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: March 3, 2014
Posts: 22
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
The slingshot (with 1500 surface) was my first experiment as it is one of the few known candidates I had on hand for the motion hole layout. When I threw the ball several frames to determine if the hole was flair safe (I had to move the hole 1" to the side) it was very weak and left a lot of 7 pins and even a couple of 5 - 7's. After drilling the first hole 3/4 x 4, I threw 5 strikes in six frames. With a 1 x 4 hole, I threw another 4 strikes in the next six balls. With a 1 1/8 by 4 hole, I threw another 9 out of 12 strikes. I stopped at this point for the time because I was at the 3 oz. top weight limit. I wanted to use the ball several times before maxing out the hole.

The first motion hole expanded my strike line area a little and improved pin carry, but the ball was still weak and deflected some at the pocket. The bigger holes had little effect on performance and I never noticed a change in the amount of overall hook from the ball without the first hole. Overall the strikes were unimpressive and appeared "lucky". In league (fresh oil), the ball left several 7 pins, which did not surprise me. The ball may have found a home on another alley with very difficult wooden lanes (a very flat short pattern that approaches sport shot difficulty). After two nights, the ball seems to have a very precise line that produces powerful strikes, and the misses don't result in disaster leaves. It is the most successful ball of approximately ten tried over two years at that alley. I hope it will be an excellent option for dry conditions.

Kevin

_________________
Left handed, 195 ave., 16.5 mph (camera frames), 225 revs (9 revolutions to pin deck), PAP 5 x 1 1/4 up, 15 to 18 deg. tilt, 45 deg. rotation.
Sweetspot: 85 degrees +/- 20 degrees, Benchmark: 45 x 4 x 40


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:54 am Post Number: #53 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: March 3, 2014
Posts: 22
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
The Fix is my second attempt at the motion hole and I will definitely move the VAL angle closer to my benchmark as I am hoping to use the ball on more oil. Thanks for the recommendation Eric.


My first attempt - a Brunswick Slingshot - did not show a big response to the Motion hole, but it only has a .017 RG differential. The Fix is at the other end of the spectrum at .054 with a strong cover for oil. Depending on the results of the Fix, I may trying a moderate RG differential ball (.030 - .040) for average conditions (Brunswick Rhino or Columbia Nitrous?) but do not have a ball yet. How does RG and RG differential affect the motion hole.

I have a Storm Super Natural (2.88 oz TW) that I am tempted to try as an alternative to the Slingshot as it is a "hybrid" urethane with a 2.55 RG, .038 RG differential, and suitable core shape.

Kevin

_________________
Left handed, 195 ave., 16.5 mph (camera frames), 225 revs (9 revolutions to pin deck), PAP 5 x 1 1/4 up, 15 to 18 deg. tilt, 45 deg. rotation.
Sweetspot: 85 degrees +/- 20 degrees, Benchmark: 45 x 4 x 40


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:49 am Post Number: #54 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: November 21, 2014
Posts: 651
Location: Hong Kong
Reputation: 17
Reputation Power: 1
Drilled 2 MO balls recently.

Storm Optimus Solid PIN beside RF 4000 grit. Rotogrip Deranged PIN above RF 2000 grit. Both holes are 7/8" large and shifted right and down by 1" from the desired 10" location (flare over) .

Quite surprised that Deranged covers more boards than Optimus Solid and a very noticeable skid flip reaction. The Optimus Solid is very controllable, kind of hook set reaction. Both are very continuous through the pocket, leaving 4 or 9 more than 7 or 10.

_________________
Adrian

Right handed
PAP: 5 5/8 up 3/4
Speed: 14 mph off hand
Rev: 300 RPM
Axis tilt: 15*
Axis rotation: 60*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:05 pm Post Number: #55 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: November 2, 2012
Posts: 8
Location: Colorado Springs
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
Does anyone have a thought regarding a motion hole in a RotoGrip Wreck-em?
Respects,
Mike


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:00 am Post Number: #56 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3167
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 270
Reputation Power: 3
Mestrickland325 wrote:
Does anyone have a thought regarding a motion hole in a RotoGrip Wreck-em?
Respects,
Mike

The Wreck-em has a good core to Motion Hole. It is a pearl so surface may need to be adjusted.
Is it an existing ball in your arsenal?
If so what layout is on it? Where is the Pin located?
What are your release specs? PAP, Tilt, Rotation Speed and Revs?

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:39 am Post Number: #57 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: November 2, 2012
Posts: 8
Location: Colorado Springs
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
The Wreck-Em is a new ball, undrilled. My PAP is 4.5x.250; tilt is 15*; rotation is 60*; speed is 15-17mph; revs are 275. I will use the pin above layout. In addition, I use a pinkie finger hole along with my MF/RF grip holes. I expect to place the CG in the grip line. Top weight is 2.5oz with a 3.5inch pin.
Thank you, Eric

Mike


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:17 pm Post Number: #58 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3167
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 270
Reputation Power: 3
Looks like you have everything in order to get good results.
Let us know how it works for you.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Motion hole experiments
 Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:23 pm Post Number: #59 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3167
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 270
Reputation Power: 3
Deerehunter wrote:
I may trying a moderate RG differential ball (.030 - .040) for average conditions (Brunswick Rhino or Columbia Nitrous?) but do not have a ball yet. How does RG and RG differential affect the motion hole.

I added a 5th motion hole to my arsenal. Columbia Nitrous. I considered the Rhino but after analyzing the core shape and where the motion hole would end up I opted against it. The light bulb shape is very small in the motion hole location. And after the poor results I had with the Edge I wasn't going to risk minimal results.
The Nitrous has a much larger core. The Motion hole penetrated the core by 2" and am very pleased with the results. Shot 717 with it on my first series with the hole. Never even considered changing balls. Base layout 70-4.5-35 Motion hole 29/32" x 4". It is very low flare which was ok with me because it is intended for higher friction conditions. Prior to the hole I was leaving lots of 7 pins and seeing a lot of deflection in the pocket. The core was not helping me get the ball into a good roll. The ball motion before the hole was long slow control hook, after the hole it is a well defined Long and Strong.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 59 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

Board index » Mo & Friends » General Discussion


 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: