Pro shop Rant

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jspfeffer
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Pro shop Rant

Post by jspfeffer »

Well.. I have to admit I am frustrated.. I live in So. Cal. and have been away from bowling for 20+ years... I used to be pretty good... I came back about 4 months ago, and have been struggling with finding a pro shop.

So far I have worked with one .. a chain with a couple of locations..
As I have been getting back into it and really thinking of buying my own equipment for personal use.. or maybe even opening a shop.

I admit I am a type A.. and very precise.. but I don't see how shops with such poor service manage to say in business. My assumption is that because they are in a large center, they must just sell a lot to newbies. I think I have been patient.. but one thing after another just keeps happening...

So sanity check.. in the last 4 months I have bought about 7 new balls.
All with the same span, finger inserts, thumb molds etc... I started measuring them.. and most varied by at least 1/4" in the span.

I brought that up as I became more confident in my skills.. The response given was well did you tell us that they had to be exact? Really? I thought the point of a span was to be exact? I get a + or - .. but 1/4"?

Ok.. got on them.. plugged and drilled and so far those new drills seem spot on..

Oh.. but hey.. I dropped off 4 balls for that plug and redrill and one new one...never drilled had a specific layout for each.. out of the 5 total.. 4 were close.. 2-5* off.. the new one.. was 15* off.. Sure when I pointed it out.. I got a little bit of attitude but once they realized I wasn't wrong.. they did order a new ball and make it good...

Strike 3.. sort of.. The owner is only there 2-3 days a week.. and even the days and times vary..
I dealt with him originally...But when all the mistakes started happening.. I assumed that it was partly the handoff with the other guys in the shop...Also his schedule was all over the map.
So I switched to the co-owner and so far so good.. He was there several days a week and that was working out.. but now he is there 1 day a week.. and that varies.. I get it that each of them have issues they have to attend to.. but if you can only work 1-3 day a week... how do I get work done.. drop it off week 1 for the plug...and week 2.. maybe pick it up?

Am I expecting too much? The only way you can catch either is to call the shop or email them for the schedule that week.. but even then they don't always stay until the end of the shift..

I need to know who to deal with so that as issues arise.. it isn't a case of well so and so.. did this.. and then so and so drilled it.. so probably a miscommunication. I bowl tournaments on weekends.. so I plan normally on dropping it off on Mon.. or early in the week.. and getting it by Friday... I think that is normal.. not waiting 2 weeks..

One more reason I think I just should get the equipment and do my own.. maybe other too.. I can't believe I am the only one they are frustrating...

So... Thoughts?
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Re: Pro shop Rant

Post by deadpin6 »

Thought I was the only one experiencing that problem. My story is the same but with a few variables. I was out 14yrs went / still going through the same issue. Out of 4 I have been working with each one has its weak and strong areas of expertise. My needs determines which one I visit to get something done. Though I made a point not to burn any bridges, becuase I think they all have the best intentions so I use each as needed to accommodate my needs.
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Re: Pro shop Rant

Post by spmcgivern »

I would just let it be known who you want working on your stuff. Work out a schedule with that person and work with them only. It seems tough now since you are in a position to need a lot of work. Once everything fits correctly, your time with the shop will reduce significantly.

Not saying equipment doesn't need to be exact, but you seem to have found who you like there and thus you should try to work with them only. If it continues to be inconsistent you will probably have to continue looking.
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Re: Pro shop Rant

Post by TonyPR »

Hello jspfeffer, post your location, maybe someone here can recommend a good reputable shop.
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Re: Pro shop Rant

Post by stevespo »

jspfeffer wrote: One more reason I think I just should get the equipment and do my own.. maybe other too.. I can't believe I am the only one they are frustrating...
I think this is a common story. Most of the higher average bowlers in my area drive 2-6 hours minimum (round trip) to visit shops that they are satisfied with. A few are drilling their own stuff at home. The 3-4 shops that are closer, people are dissatisfied with for various reasons. Might be technical, might be slow turnaround, lack of knowledge about layouts/ball motion, poor communication, etc. They all do some things well, but not consistently enough for more "demanding" (PITA?) clients.

I started drilling my own stuff last year because I wanted the freedom to experiment and quickly iterate around different layouts, spans/pitches, etc. If you want to drill a few balls a year, I would stick with an established shop and work out the details with them.

If you're more ambitious or have other needs, then setting up at home is an option. I already had the milling machine, but still needed to add carbide bits, spinner, revivor, scale ($), ball plug, etc, etc. It's not cheap to get into, but at least you'll understand the process and have control over the outcome.

Personally, I have resisted drilling for other people because I don't want to run a pro shop and compete with the local shops. It's for my own personal needs, and not for income. That's not to say I haven't helped out a few teammates, but I prefer to direct them elsewhere and maintain a good relationship with the local shops.

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Re: Pro shop Rant

Post by jspfeffer »

Hi Deadpin...
Thanks for the reply.. Glad to know I am not the only one... I like the guys personally. They aren't a bad group, just super inconsistent. They own several shops in my immediate area. I need to find someone local or someone open till 8 or 9 so I can get there after work. I am not dying to drive super far, but will if they stay open late enough. In So. Cal.. traffic is a real PIA. When they close at 6 and I don't leave till 5 or 5:30.. that is part of the issue... I will send more more emails, and make some more phone calls..

Thanks!


Hi spmcgivern,

Yes I agree, I have said who I want.. The problem is either one of the 2.. are never there on a consistent basis.. but yes... trying to work it.. and come up with a plan to address the issues..
Well see how it goes.. I think I have made progress with them, on the accuracy.. now if they would just be in the shop consistently... :)

Thanks!

Hi Stevespo,

LOL... yeah.. I probably am the "more demanding PITA client"... I pay well, communicate well, and pretty technical. So yeah.. I fit that for sure. In some ways I am not too PITA.. For example you can have my stuff from Mon-Fri evening.. As long as I have it every weekend... no problem.. So they can have it 5 days.. I only want it 2 normally.. lol

As far as drilling goes... Me too.. I want to do some experimenting too. with quick turnaround. I also want to be exact, if it isn't I was either sloppy, or I need to work on technique. but at least I know who did it.. I do plan on more than just a few balls a year..

I have been looking at equipment and packages from innovative.. and jayhawk.. leaning towards innovative.. the only stopper is the price.. :) 8-9K for the mill.. or about 16k for all the goodies..
I have also been looking for good used.. or a shop going out of business... So far I keep missing them.. Just this week one went up and 3 hrs later it was sold with 2 backup buyers...

Thanks for the help..
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Re: Pro shop Rant

Post by stevespo »

jspfeffer wrote:I have been looking at equipment and packages from innovative.. and jayhawk.. leaning towards innovative.. the only stopper is the price.. :) 8-9K for the mill.. or about 16k for all the goodies.. I have also been looking for good used.. or a shop going out of business... So far I keep missing them.. Just this week one went up and 3 hrs later it was sold with 2 backup buyers...
The turnkey packages certainly are nice, and make sense for a full-time pro shop - but hard to justify for a part-timer. Look on Craigslist for a used Mill/Drill or heavy duty drill press. Add a sliding table and clamping jig. Sets of carbide bits show up on eBay all the time, or just buy the 2-3 that you're going to need for yourself. Then there are things like the KMT Personal Ball Jig that allow you to drill and weigh, and may be cost effective.

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Re: Pro shop Rant

Post by Viper »

jspfeffer wrote:So... Thoughts?

I feel your pain. I use an out-of-town pro-shop using pics, video, e-mail and UPS to get things done. This game has gotten awfully complicated and expensive, hasn't it? No wonder the sport is shrinking and becoming more of a recreational past time.

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Re: Pro shop Rant

Post by DarkHorse »

First off, I completely agree that the work you had been receiving seems unacceptable. There is no reason to miss a span by more than 1/16"; it's not rocket science. Also, when a bowler asks for a specific layout (nobody around me uses Dual-Angles, so it's rare), I will ask what the intention is, but ultimately will drill the ball how the bowler wants.

I'd say you have valid concerns, but let me add a bit of insight from the other side of the counter, as I work part-time in a small, local pro shop. Please take nothing here personally. I don't know you, and I try to provide excellent customer service in my shop, but I deal with things you don't see, and may not even consider. My situation may be different than the guys you're working with, but here are my thoughts.

Basically, it depends on whether those employees are full-time, or part-time.
In my area, there is only 1 "full-time" pro shop. He may work 40+ hours per week, but his shop is not necessarily "Open" all day. If he gets busy he will do work while his doors are closed to catch up. Even so, he is the only employee in that shop.

For us part-timers, please understand that this is not our only job, and this job most likely pays much less than our primary job. My day job pays piece work, and in 1 hour I can earn more money than in a day at my pro shop. If I have to choose between overtime and a shift in the pro shop, that decision is made very quickly.

It may seem like "only" 1 extra hour to you, but if I've been working since 7am, I may not be inclined to stay longer at my secondary job. Some of us have families we'd like to see once in awhile. An extra hour per day spent with a customer that may not appreciate the sacrifice is likely not worth an extra hour of family time. Depends on the person, though. On multiple occasions I've had people ask me to stay late or come in early, then they don't show, and never call.
At times I have to wonder: if it's so important to you, why don't you leave your job early once a week?
Also, as I work later in the shop, I lose time bowling. We are bowlers too; if I work until 7 I won't be able to start most leagues.

Regarding miscommunication within the shop, it depends on the employees and the owner/manager, but it's like any workplace: different people have different habits. Some people work by memory and some work by notes. Some people assume certain things are standard, some specify everything. If their management has not given them consistent training, you will get inconsistent results. You shouldn't settle for subpar work, but understand that everybody operates with a different amount of intellectual bandwidth. If this shop just can't seem to get it together, to your liking, you may need to look elsewhere.

I know that this sounds bad, but the best thing you can do is become friends with one of the guys in the shop. You seem to get on well with the co-owner, so try to spend time with him bowling. Or golfing, or fishing, etc. If he feels you see hims as more than some schmuck you give money to, he won't see you as "just a customer" and will be more likely to help you out and make sure it's done right the first time, on time, every time.

Bowling pro shops have become a vicious cycle: there are fewer bowlers in leagues and tournaments, so we have less income. The only way to maintain profitability is to increase prices or reduce hours. Bowlers respond with buying equipment online, so we have less income. Bowlers scoff at the price to drill a ball purchased elsewhere (we charge $50), when they don't consider that we make less money on a ball we sell and drill. The price I pay for a top-end ball ranges from $135 to $185, depending on brand and standing with my distributor. The larger my account, on an annual basis, the lower my costs on each order. When I spend time drilling gear which doesn't credit that account, I risk dropping a tier or two and having to raise my prices even more the next year.

As the pro shop business dwindles, fewer skilled people become interested in working in a shop. The pay is low, the hours suck, and we live in a demanding world where we can't afford to lose any customers, even the PITA ones. As such, we either end up with fewer employees of high quality, or more employees of low quality.

I understand that your time, money, and gear are all important to you.
I understand that this is a customer service position.
Please understand that my time and money are important to me.
Please understand that I am a normal person, and just as bad things happen to you, they happen to me.
When you have a bad day at work, you get to go home, or go bowling.
When I have a bad day at work, I leave and go to a second job.
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Re: Pro shop Rant

Post by dmsarch »

Jsp,

I see you're in SoCal, which is great! Here's the place to go:

Westminster Bowling Supply, Butch Maxwell proprietor. No employees... Just the MAN. And I do mean the MAN.

I'm same as you... Came back after a thirty year layoff. Got a ball, and had it drilled at the local house pro shop. HUGE disappointment.

Decided I wanted to go up in ball weight, so I did some research and found Butch. He will give you precisely what you're expecting from the good old days; measured me very carefully, inspected the oil flares on my ball to get the pin position and CG correct. Got my fit PERFECT. After that, he carefully recorded a detailed drill sheet which he uses for future drills. I had a second ball drilled a few weeks later and it is an EXACT copy of the first one he did.

These balls are so comfortable I could stick my hand in 'em, go to bed and wake up in the morning with my hand feeling better than it did when I hit the sack. Improved my game by forty pins instantly. I can bowl a dozen games in a night with ZERO discomfort. My hand looks like I never even touched a bowling ball, and I bowl at least 18 games a week.

Here's his website: http://www.balldoctor.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tell him Dave the Architect sent you.

I will never, ever have a ball drilled by anyone else, period.

Butch is an eccentric guy, he'll spend a lot of time with you, and you may need to wait a day or two for him to do your drill. But... He keeps regular hours at the shop, and drills after hours so he can concentrate without interruptions. Make some time or call and see how his work load is before you go in, because he's first-come, first-served and he will NOT rush it just to get to the next person in line.

Best wishes and closed frames to you!
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Re: Pro shop Rant

Post by krava »

I would go to that above place if I were you. Usually someplace that has been in business a long time is in business a long time for a reason. That is why I go to dallas and they been there 25 years. Now for the guy above me can you bowl 12 games and not have shoulder issues? I am having shoulder pains after just 3 games. My shoulder isn't fully healed. I might need to take 2-3 weeks off. I used to bowl 10 games with no problems now I have problems or unleast I let my shoulder heal up.
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Re: Pro shop Rant

Post by dmsarch »

krava wrote:I would go to that above place if I were you. Usually someplace that has been in business a long time is in business a long time for a reason. That is why I go to Dallas and they been there 25 years. Now for the guy above me can you bowl 12 games and not have shoulder issues? I am having shoulder pains after just 3 games. My shoulder isn't fully healed. I might need to take 2-3 weeks off. I used to bowl 10 games with no problems now I have problems or unless I let my shoulder heal up.
Krava,

Pro shops:

Yes. If you've been out of the sport for a few decades, it'll be a rude awakening. I think Butch will give our friend above what they're expecting!

There's so much neglect and incompetence out there these days that you've got to really hunt for the best people... for ANY task you hire out. Fitting a bowling ball is so important to your orthopedic health, I can't see just blindly trusting any joker with a drill press to do it and get it right (and we've probably all done it in recent years!).

You could really injure yourself with one of these things! To whit...

Shoulder pain:

No... No shoulder pain at all. I have a very free swing, and am careful not to overweight... My heavy ball is a 15#, and I weigh about 200. My light ball is a 13#. I only roll the heavy ball when I'm tight and tending to 'muscle'... It calms me back down.

Paradoxically, I do have some pain in my balance arm. I've videoed myself and notice that I really twist it up good on my release, such that my palm is facing the ceiling directly, and even a little toward the pin deck! <g>

Places I get sensitive at are my left forearm / elbow (balance arm) and left knee (of course!). I wear a compression cuff on my left knee and have had no pain lasting more than an hour or so after an intensive session.

I'm 49 and can feel a little arthritis creeping in. I get a bit of psoriasis when I'm stressed, and I know the two are related. Getting old sucks! :x

Dunno' on your shoulder... I'd defer to a pro on that one. Hope you feel better soon, though!
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Re: Pro shop Rant

Post by russelldean »

checked out the balldoctor. looks pretty good, but he says to make sure and polish your ball after its sanded. I don't own a polished ball. maybe thats my problem...lol
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Re: Pro shop Rant

Post by jspfeffer »

Thanks everyone for all the advice... I will check out your suggestion and give butch a call...
I am glad I checked this thread, I didn't get any notifications from the board...

Thanks again!!!
John
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Re: Pro shop Rant

Post by Big Kahuna »

Lay your equipment out yourself and tell them to cut here....
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Re: Pro shop Rant

Post by cheech »

keep in mind too this is summer time. their schedule might become more consistent during the season. also with them owning multiple shops they could be at the other shops on the days they are seemingly off
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Re: Pro shop Rant

Post by Qman »

cheech wrote:keep in mind too this is summer time. their schedule might become more consistent during the season. also with them owning multiple shops they could be at the other shops on the days they are seemingly off
CHEECH! Hows your summer gone brother? Mine has sucked, all I have done is work, no time for anything fun. My fun begins the first Wed. after Labor Day!
Adapt or perish!

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