Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

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Adrenaline
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by Adrenaline »

MWhite wrote: Two drivers side by side on a race track. The guy on the right is not happy with whatever the guy on the left just did so he decides to "trade some paint".

He turns the wheel left until his car is 7 degrees off of straight down his lane.

At the moment his car reaches 7 degrees, he turns the wheel back to straight to maintain the 7 degrees, until impact. What we are interested in is the force of the impact.

Compare to instead of only turning 7 degrees, and then straightening out, he decided to keep the wheel turned until contact.

This time he happened to be a little closer to the car when he turned, and coincidentally he was pointed 7 degrees at the point of impact.

Now remember, like the road bed / tire analogy, these cars are not under power (not accelerating) nor braking other than the slowing down due to the turning.

Both cars achieved the same change of direction, burning up the same amount of speed to get there, so they should have the same level of impact.

Same level of impact in bowling means the same amount of deflection, and therefore the same chance of carrying.

One was in the roll phase (maintaining 7 degrees), while the other was in the hook phase (still turning), which just happen to reach 7 degrees on it's way to more, until interrupted by the impact.

While I appreciate the analogy, this falls back under what I initially explained. The driver who is 'still turning' is splitting his tires traction (balls energy) between his forward direction, and the direction in which he is turning. Whereas the driver who is driving straight will impact 100% of its forward momentum into a single direction, and will more efficiently transfer it's energy into the object with which it collides (pins).

Also, if I recall correctly, a car accelerating to 60mph, will impact more force than a car cruising at 60mph, even if they both strike an object at the exact same speed. So, if we fall back to your statement a few posts ago, "maximum rev when it starts to roll, yes." or even your last post, "In terms of bowling, the balls speed is decreasing (road bed MPH) while the balls rev rate (Tire's MPH) is increasing." in both aspects you're describing an increase in the balls movement, in 1 form of another. That increase, will result in more energy (kinetic maybe?) applied to the object it collides with. Am I remembering my High School science correctly here?

It would seem logical that a ball that hasn't reached the 'increase' you've defined twice now, (still hooking) won't be as effective as a ball that DOES reach that increase (rolling) in regards to 'colliding' with the head pin. Right?
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by MWhite »

TonyPR wrote:I believe you are correct Adrenaline, in a controlled experiment we must compare apples to apples. The problem here arises when we try to isolate variables that are interdependent. It has been proven that a ball in it's roll phase carries best and ball choices, surface and layouts aim to acheive this roll phase at the correct time for a bowler with specific characteristics on a specific shot.

Few things I just remembered that Mo said on the above180 Ball Drilling For Dummies podcast:

-Carry is the ability to strike
-A guy told Mo he likes seeing his ball hook into the pins and Mo replied "what, you like shooting at single pin spares"
-What Chris Barnes says about league players vs PBA players in what they like to see in ball motion: League players like to see that angular hook while he prefers an earlier roll.

I am not quoting exactly what they say but it's all in that podcast series.

Edit:
Then again after reading your example, which by the way was very well thought MWhite, I now don't know what to believe because your logic is 100% correct.
The problem is either you keep the delivery of the ball the same, or you keep the result of where the ball hits the pins the same. if you insist on keeping both the same, you're comparing two identical entities, and therefore you should see no differences.

If you keep the releases the same, and for whatever reason, one ball doesn't reach the roll phase, when it hits the head pin, it wouldn't have moved as much from right to left as the ball that did each the roll phase. And not moving as much means the ball hits the head pin lighter, which tends to leave something weak.

The problem there is there are two differences between the shots.. roll phase vs hook phase, and flush pocket vs light pocket.

Which do you "blame" for that damn 10 pin?

After watching enough senior bowls who's ball rolls real early, it's all about flush vs light pocket.

For myself I can throw either plastic, or polished urethane, both of which don't achieve roll phase, it's all about flush vs light pocket.
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by MWhite »

Adrenaline wrote:

While I appreciate the analogy, this falls back under what I initially explained. The driver who is 'still turning' is splitting his tires traction (balls energy) between his forward direction, and the direction in which he is turning. Whereas the driver who is driving straight will impact 100% of its forward momentum into a single direction, and will more efficiently transfer it's energy into the object with which it collides (pins).

Also, if I recall correctly, a car accelerating to 60mph, will impact more force than a car cruising at 60mph, even if they both strike an object at the exact same speed. So, if we fall back to your statement a few posts ago, "maximum rev when it starts to roll, yes." or even your last post, "In terms of bowling, the balls speed is decreasing (road bed MPH) while the balls rev rate (Tire's MPH) is increasing." in both aspects you're describing an increase in the balls movement, in 1 form of another. That increase, will result in more energy (kinetic maybe?) applied to the object it collides with. Am I remembering my High School science correctly here?

It would seem logical that a ball that hasn't reached the 'increase' you've defined twice now, (still hooking) won't be as effective as a ball that DOES reach that increase (rolling) in regards to 'colliding' with the head pin. Right?

Not quite.

Think of both cars coasting, one turns left for a period of time changing direction.

That turning slows the car down an amount relative to the change of direction the car achieves.

After it achieves that change (7 degrees) it points the wheels forward and continues to coast.

The second car has the same speed before turning the wheel, and achieves the same 7 degrees, so it slowed the same amount.

The difference between the two cars is the first one had time to turn the wheels straight and coast, while the second car impacted before turning the wheels straight

Same speed, same angle, same impact.

Physics doesn't consider intent, as in the 2nd car intended to keep turning.
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by MWhite »

Adrenaline wrote:Okay then, in an attempt to tie up loose ends I'm still curious about:



Can we clarify what 'rev' we're measuring? The revolutions of the ball, the core, or something else? My assumption would be that once the core migrates to it's preffered axis, all energy is being focused into a single direction. At that exact moment is when 'revs' are the highest, thus why the roll phase is desired for carry? Which kind of reiterates the point from prior. Maximum energy is obtained once the balls 2 paths of momentum converge into 1, and then decrease from that point until the ball stops, or hits the pins. But are we measuring the revs of the core here? Similar to a rolling pin, end over end, vs uh... rolling? lol.
You said:
Adrenaline wrote:If Velocity is one of the 3 factors in calculating 2 bodies colliding as you state... and a ball reaches it's maximum 'rev/speed' just when it starts to roll... then aren't you supporting the fact, that the 'roll phase' will have a greater effect on the energy directed into the pins, than the 'hook phase'?
The ball reaches is maximum rev rate just when the ball starts to roll.
But the ball has it's maximum speed at the release. It is decelerating all through the hook phase, then coasts from where it starts to roll until hitting the pins.

That also means that all things being equal, a ball still hooking hasn't decelerated as much as a ball in the roll phase.

Higher magnitude of velocity means the components of momentum are increased as well.
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by russelldean »

Lets simplify this. The bowling ball does not remain on a consistent surface. We go from a low friction zone, to high friction zone. As the ball enters the roll phase it chains up. A car doing a burnout has little forward momentum. Once the tires grip the road, it can launch forward. A bowling ball can encounter friction, but if it is rotating in a different direction then it is traveling.....It is not going to accelerate.
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by MWhite »

russelldean wrote:Lets simplify this. The bowling ball does not remain on a consistent surface. We go from a low friction zone, to high friction zone. As the ball enters the roll phase it chains up. A car doing a burnout has little forward momentum. Once the tires grip the road, it can launch forward. A bowling ball can encounter friction, but if it is rotating in a different direction then it is traveling.....It is not going to accelerate.
You have to think of the motions in vector components, rather than the overall magnitude.

While the ball is hooking, it is decelerating in it's magnitude, and linear component, but it is accelerating in it's lateral component.
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by Adrenaline »

MWhite wrote: The difference between the two cars is the first one had time to turn the wheels straight and coast, while the second car impacted before turning the wheels straight

Same speed, same angle, same impact.
Same angle? Yes
Same speed? Yes
Same impact? No.

Impact force is a scientific measurement that you would understand and explain better than I. But to anyone reading, I believe it can be simplified by thinking of a glass of water in a car. When turning, the water will slosh to one side (the outside) of the cup. In a straight line it remains level. Now imagine being in a car wreck in both scenarios.

The car that is traveling straight, will have the entirety of the waters inertia going directly into the object it collides with (forward).

The car that is turning, will now have 2 separate directions of force being applied to it's inertia. The water was already being pushed to the outside of the glass, and now it is being pushed forward in the glass, towards the object it collides with. The water in this cup will spread it's momentum across the range of directions being applied (forward and to the outside). Meaning the water is not going to be transferred 100% into a a single direction.

The water in the above scenario is energy (kinetic I think?). The more energy you transfer into the pins, the better. Therefor the less directional paths energy has to be distributed among, the more effective that energy transfer will be. The goal is for the bowling ball to be transferring all of it's energy into a single direction, directly into the headpin. If the ball is still hooking, then it's trying to travel in multiple directions, and it's energy will be divided to some degree.
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by russelldean »

Adrenaline wrote:
Same angle? Yes
Same speed? Yes
Same impact? No.

Impact force is a scientific measurement that you would understand and explain better than I. But to anyone reading, I believe it can be simplified by thinking of a glass of water in a car. When turning, the water will slosh to one side (the outside) of the cup. In a straight line it remains level. Now imagine being in a car wreck in both scenarios.

The car that is traveling straight, will have the entirety of the waters inertia going directly into the object it collides with (forward).

The car that is turning, will now have 2 separate directions of force being applied to it's inertia. The water was already being pushed to the outside of the glass, and now it is being pushed forward in the glass, towards the object it collides with. The water in this cup will spread it's momentum across the range of directions being applied (forward and to the outside). Meaning the water is not going to be transferred 100% into a a single direction.

The water in the above scenario is energy (kinetic I think?). The more energy you transfer into the pins, the better. Therefor the less directional paths energy has to be distributed among, the more effective that energy transfer will be. The goal is for the bowling ball to be transferring all of it's energy into a single direction, directly into the headpin. If the ball is still hooking, then it's trying to travel in multiple directions, and it's energy will be divided to some degree.
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by MWhite »

Adrenaline wrote:
Same angle? Yes
Same speed? Yes
Same impact? No.

Impact force is a scientific measurement that you would understand and explain better than I. But to anyone reading, I believe it can be simplified by thinking of a glass of water in a car. When turning, the water will slosh to one side (the outside) of the cup. In a straight line it remains level. Now imagine being in a car wreck in both scenarios.

The car that is traveling straight, will have the entirety of the waters inertia going directly into the object it collides with (forward).

The car that is turning, will now have 2 separate directions of force being applied to it's inertia. The water was already being pushed to the outside of the glass, and now it is being pushed forward in the glass, towards the object it collides with. The water in this cup will spread it's momentum across the range of directions being applied (forward and to the outside). Meaning the water is not going to be transferred 100% into a a single direction.

The water in the above scenario is energy (kinetic I think?). The more energy you transfer into the pins, the better. Therefor the less directional paths energy has to be distributed among, the more effective that energy transfer will be. The goal is for the bowling ball to be transferring all of it's energy into a single direction, directly into the headpin. If the ball is still hooking, then it's trying to travel in multiple directions, and it's energy will be divided to some degree.
Actually the introduction of a liquid makes trying to explain what happens very messy to the point of impossible.

If you watched the movie The Martian, they lost their first resupply mission to Mars because the G forces caused the food to reach liqufacation. The onboard computers thinking everything onboard was a solid material wasn't able to make corrections, because liquid doesn't respond like solids.

They go into greater detail in the book, which by the way, is much better than the movie.

I'm trying to find my old physics book to be sure when I try to explain why the impact is the same, I don't make some little mistake, and therefore appear as if the conclusion is completely wrong.

I've scoured the internet for examples of partial inelastic 2d collisions, but so far, I haven't found a good example.

Complete inelastic collisions, and perfect elastic collisions, they have by the boat load.

In a perfect elastic collision, momentum is conserved, and kinetic energy is also conserved, which makes the math rather simple.

In a complete inelastic collision, two bodies collide, and then travel as one larger lump so there is only one angle, and velocity for the "lump"

In bowling, the pin goes one way, and the ball goes another, so the two bodies aren't a lump, but they don't perform a perfect elastic collision either..

The ball has a coefficient of restitution of about 70%, while the pin has a coefficient of restitution of about 67%

Those are factors in the amount of kinetic energy of the total objects after the collision.
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by MWhite »

russelldean wrote:Lets simplify this. The bowling ball does not remain on a consistent surface. We go from a low friction zone, to high friction zone. As the ball enters the roll phase it chains up. A car doing a burnout has little forward momentum. Once the tires grip the road, it can launch forward. A bowling ball can encounter friction, but if it is rotating in a different direction then it is traveling.....It is not going to accelerate.
IF you only focus on the cross lane component of momentum of a bowling ball, it's similar to your analogy of the car

The bowler applies revs to the ball at some axis of rotation.

While the ball is in the oil skidding, it is doing the "burn out" and has little (even negative) momentum right to left.

Once the ball grips the lane, it can launch left.

The launch isn't as noticeable because you're seeing both lateral component, and linear component of motion, with the linear component being much larger.

Think about 7 degrees of angle of entry, while plenty to score well, the ball only has about 12% lateral component compared to it's linear component.
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by Qman »

MegaMav wrote:
Have it your way, I'll take strong hits (roll phase at the pins) over weak hits (hook phase at the pins) every day, every pattern, every ball, every shot.

Its no secret that hook-set is the highest carry percentage ball motion available, maybe other than motion hole but im not using that on sport, too much left to right.
He must like leaving alot of flat 10's then because his ball is still in the hook phase when it hits the pins. Flat 10's bug the hell out of me because I know I could've thrown a better shot. And according to previous posts where I didn't get a chance to respond before the thread was locked let me tell MWhite one thing, you can talk all the technical stuff you think you know, how does all that technical stuff translate to your game? Talk is cheap pal, I'll take you on anytime, anywhere, any pattern and I let you even choose it. Prove all the data you bring in here out on the lanes. I'll beat you 9 out of 10 times and I'll show you where you can put your data. Mav, you can ban me for this post if you want, I'm tired of this know it all and I'm sure there are others who feel the same way I do.
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by Bahshay »

Qman wrote:
He must like leaving alot of flat 10's then because his ball is still in the hook phase when it hits the pins. Flat 10's bug the hell out of me because I know I could've thrown a better shot. And according to previous posts where I didn't get a chance to respond before the thread was locked let me tell MWhite one thing, you can talk all the technical stuff you think you know, how does all that technical stuff translate to your game? Talk is cheap pal, I'll take you on anytime, anywhere, any pattern and I let you even choose it. Prove all the data you bring in here out on the lanes. I'll beat you 9 out of 10 times and I'll show you where you can put your data. Mav, you can ban me for this post if you want, I'm tired of this know it all and I'm sure there are others who feel the same way I do.
:|
Beating him at bowling wouldn't make his science incorrect (assuming it's correct, I have no idea).

He has a different opinion than many of us here. That's a good thing. That's what drives discussion on discussion forums. Don't discourage participation.
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by mattypizon »

Bahshay wrote:
Beating him at bowling wouldn't make his science incorrect (assuming it's correct, I have no idea).

He has a different opinion than many of us here. That's a good thing. That's what drives discussion on discussion forums. Don't discourage participation.
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by MegaMav »

Bahshay wrote: Beating him at bowling wouldn't make his science incorrect (assuming it's correct, I have no idea).

He has a different opinion than many of us here. That's a good thing. That's what drives discussion on discussion forums. Don't discourage participation.
I have no problem with discussion and opinion as long as its well structured and respectful.
The calling out by Qman, borderline, but I understand his frustration.
I wouldnt mind a video of the match. :)
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by stevespo »

MegaMav wrote: I have no problem with discussion and opinion as long as its well structured and respectful.
Agreed. The fuzzy area is where opinion can't be substantiated and the analogies and metaphors are potentially harmful or misleading. I'm not interested in pointing the finger and disproving anything in the forum, because there is definitely value in different viewpoints, but you have to weigh that against spreading misinformation. It's up for the reader to decide.

Personally, I believe that tiny little green aliens live in my bowling balls and that causes me to leave 10 pins. The solution is food offerings before league begins.

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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by Qman »

stevespo wrote:
Agreed. The fuzzy area is where opinion can't be substantiated and the analogies and metaphors are potentially harmful or misleading. I'm not interested in pointing the finger and disproving anything in the forum, because there is definitely value in different viewpoints, but you have to weigh that against spreading misinformation. It's up for the reader to decide.

Personally, I believe that tiny little green aliens live in my bowling balls and that causes me to leave 10 pins. The solution is food offerings before league begins.

Steve
I tried that, still leave just as many. :lol:
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by TonyPR »

No, no, no Qman and stevespo, I have a logical explanation... It's the lane man, he nails the 10 pin to the pin deck every time it's my turn, you are supposed to tip him a few dollars so he can help with carry.
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by stevespo »

TonyPR wrote:No, no, no Qman and stevespo, I have a logical explanation... It's the lane man, he nails the 10 pin to the pin deck every time it's my turn, you are supposed to tip him a few dollars so he can help with carry.
That explains everything. The lane man is working with the spacemen!

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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by MWhite »

russelldean wrote:Lets simplify this. The bowling ball does not remain on a consistent surface. We go from a low friction zone, to high friction zone. As the ball enters the roll phase it chains up. A car doing a burnout has little forward momentum. Once the tires grip the road, it can launch forward. A bowling ball can encounter friction, but if it is rotating in a different direction then it is traveling.....It is not going to accelerate.
If you have side roll on the ball, and the ball is encountering friction, then by the elementary rule in physics, F = M * A, if there is a force, and the mass isn't 0 or negative, then there will be acceleration.
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Re: Fail Safe Layout Failed Me

Post by MWhite »

Qman wrote:
He must like leaving alot of flat 10's then because his ball is still in the hook phase when it hits the pins. Flat 10's bug the hell out of me because I know I could've thrown a better shot. And according to previous posts where I didn't get a chance to respond before the thread was locked let me tell MWhite one thing, you can talk all the technical stuff you think you know, how does all that technical stuff translate to your game? Talk is cheap pal, I'll take you on anytime, anywhere, any pattern and I let you even choose it. Prove all the data you bring in here out on the lanes. I'll beat you 9 out of 10 times and I'll show you where you can put your data. Mav, you can ban me for this post if you want, I'm tired of this know it all and I'm sure there are others who feel the same way I do.
:|
Interesting, a challenge.

In your profile you list your average as 185, and that appears to be while taking advantage of both modern equipment, and oil patterns.

I on the other hand average 210 using a Storm Mix, while it's a new ball, it's using "old" technology.
And while I'm bowling on a 10 to 10 THS pattern, it's not providing me any assistance, because if I throw the ball straight up 10, I hit the 2 pin. I have to get the ball out of the oil early, and hit 5 board as my break point. So I could just as easily be playing on a oil pattern that wasn't any longer than 25 feet.

On those few occasions where I bowled on lanes with wider oil patterns, I've averaged 230+, because then I get a bit of hold area where I want the ball to exit.

Here is another video that gives evidence that a ball still hooking into the pins, can carry if it hits the pocket properly.

[youtube][/youtube]

So, anywhere, anytime, any pattern, of my choosing.

I hope you've got some vacation time coming.

I kinda like what they put out in Laughlin. Of the 2 times I've been there for a league sweeper, I've shot 688, and 718.

Ready to put up?
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