Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
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Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
[youtube][/youtube]
Would love to see the look on other ball company's faces..........
Would love to see the look on other ball company's faces..........
* MPH @ aarows
* RPM
AR *
AT *
PAP 3 3/4"
(* rebuilding)
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson
* RPM
AR *
AT *
PAP 3 3/4"
(* rebuilding)
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson
- river800
- Senior Member
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Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
Nice! Well, the other ball companies won't ever say a word about something like this.... It was the same way with the hammer badass ball, that ball was a wet turd because of the cover prep it left the factory with compared to the other balls tested. Marketing, where did it go for some of the other companies?
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
I would like to see this also done on the overblocked house shot that most people bowl on. That is an entirely different reality...
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RevZ
RevZ
Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
Just some things I noticed
1-The statement that the OOB surface doesn't match the MFG. advertised surfacing "process". Doesn't quite mean anything, You don't match a final surface to the process that is used to make the final surface.
You match a final surface to a final surface.
(Note: The Menace appears to be the only one that's actually compared that way. It said it was a 3000 grit and the actual was 2015 grit. Which maybe in a computer is a big difference, but in the real world on the lane that difference would be unnoticeable.)
So what final surfaces do the advertised "process's" actually produce? or what does the mfg. say the final surface should be? and how does that compare to the actual OOB surface?
2-After 10 games regardless of it's starting surface, all 4 balls surfaces wound up being almost identical.
3-After 20 games this was still true (After 20 Games- GS-3924, PA-3803, ME-3781, SW-3739 ) and the reactions of all 4 balls were not "that" different. (cleaning the ball between shots might have took up the slack.)
4-The Guru Supreme having the coarsest starting grit I think kind of "shined up" easy/more than the others.
Going from a 653 grit to a 3924 grit, I would have thought it would have at least stayed coarser than the others not smoother. If it wasn't for the chemical friction, I think it would have gone kaput compared to the others.
Just a idle thought, What If the Swerve which had the coarsest surface after 20 games had the chemical friction to go with it. (chemical friction + retaining surface texture longer = _____)
1-The statement that the OOB surface doesn't match the MFG. advertised surfacing "process". Doesn't quite mean anything, You don't match a final surface to the process that is used to make the final surface.
You match a final surface to a final surface.
(Note: The Menace appears to be the only one that's actually compared that way. It said it was a 3000 grit and the actual was 2015 grit. Which maybe in a computer is a big difference, but in the real world on the lane that difference would be unnoticeable.)
So what final surfaces do the advertised "process's" actually produce? or what does the mfg. say the final surface should be? and how does that compare to the actual OOB surface?
2-After 10 games regardless of it's starting surface, all 4 balls surfaces wound up being almost identical.
3-After 20 games this was still true (After 20 Games- GS-3924, PA-3803, ME-3781, SW-3739 ) and the reactions of all 4 balls were not "that" different. (cleaning the ball between shots might have took up the slack.)
4-The Guru Supreme having the coarsest starting grit I think kind of "shined up" easy/more than the others.
Going from a 653 grit to a 3924 grit, I would have thought it would have at least stayed coarser than the others not smoother. If it wasn't for the chemical friction, I think it would have gone kaput compared to the others.
Just a idle thought, What If the Swerve which had the coarsest surface after 20 games had the chemical friction to go with it. (chemical friction + retaining surface texture longer = _____)
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."
- Pulsetech
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Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
I'm not sure why most equate more hook as being better. However the video was a huge eye opener to me as to how fast lane shinning happens. I need to get my pads out more offten. Once again thanks to Mo and phill for actually putting this out there. Information is power.
Greg Robertson.
Right Handed
New stats as of 10/3/16
18 MPH at the line
Rev Rate 500
Axis Rotation 40 - 90
Axis Tilt - 14
PAP - 5" over, 1/2 up
Right Handed
New stats as of 10/3/16
18 MPH at the line
Rev Rate 500
Axis Rotation 40 - 90
Axis Tilt - 14
PAP - 5" over, 1/2 up
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Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
Exactly this. Glad I'm not the only one thinking this way.Pulsetech wrote:I'm not sure why most equate more hook as being better. However the video was a huge eye opener to me as to how fast lane shinning happens. I need to get my pads out more offten. Once again thanks to Mo and phill for actually putting this out there. Information is power.
Speed: 18mph at release
Revs: 250
Rotation: 45*
Tilt: 8-12*
PAP: 5 1/8" x 3/4" up
(updated 4/19/17)
Revs: 250
Rotation: 45*
Tilt: 8-12*
PAP: 5 1/8" x 3/4" up
(updated 4/19/17)
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- Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin USA
Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
Trying to make sense of all this...it's like I wasted money on a spinner when all balls end up the same.
So confused...especially when you refinish balls for others what do you tell em...?
"Those 4 balls I did for you will all end up the same after 10-20 games?
So confused...especially when you refinish balls for others what do you tell em...?
"Those 4 balls I did for you will all end up the same after 10-20 games?
Click my green + rep button if this helps!
USBC Bronze Coach
PBA60-Radical Staffer wannabe
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PBA60-Radical Staffer wannabe
Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
Not a waste of money! The video shows why you need a spinner, So you can get the balls surface back to where it needs to be.bowlaj wrote:Trying to make sense of all this...it's like I wasted money on a spinner when all balls end up the same.
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."
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Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
I doubt if you had to wait 10 games for change. I bet it happened after 2 games. maybe 1.
Hittfactor posted about playing with a scanner: viewtopic.php?t=4651" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you read post #16 carefully, he said the ball would significantly change 30 to 60 % on the lanes in 4 to 8 frames especially if a lower grit was applied.
Hittfactor posted about playing with a scanner: viewtopic.php?t=4651" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you read post #16 carefully, he said the ball would significantly change 30 to 60 % on the lanes in 4 to 8 frames especially if a lower grit was applied.
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Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
That's what I'm saying. Gonna put all my stuff at 4000!
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USBC Bronze Coach
PBA60-Radical Staffer wannabe
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PBA60-Radical Staffer wannabe
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Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
Bowlaj makes a lot of sense. I have a spinner and spend a lot of time adjusting surfaces, every set when using 2000 or more surface & about every three sets when using 3000 or 4000. Now watching the perception vs reality videos as well as Jayhawk's and rereading the BTM article, it is clear to me that within about three games a ball with 2000 or more has gone to about 4000 then slowly continues losing surface, with 75% of the loss in the first game. All the surface I put on the ball doesn't last me more than a few shots really. It now seems more logical to put all the balls at 4000 and use different strength covers and/or layouts rather than all the surface changes I have been doing. Now I would love to see a topic on chemical friction vs mechanical friction, Brunswick seems to first write about CFT in 2009 and Radical talks about it quite a bit now
Senior Bowler
Tilt 23
Rot 20-40
Speed off hand 17-18
Rev 200-250
PAP 4 5/8 over 1 up RH'd 185+ On THS
Tilt 23
Rot 20-40
Speed off hand 17-18
Rev 200-250
PAP 4 5/8 over 1 up RH'd 185+ On THS
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- Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin USA
Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
I've used primarily skip a grit:
500/2000
1000/4000
500/4000
sometimes with polish and/or scuffed at bit...
...and like what happens when it sees friction...a bit of a bite.
Now will try progression up to 4000.
Take these unpredictable surface changes out of the equation (lane shine or whatever it's called?)
Abralon is king for us without bottomless pockets or a ball contract.
If you can get the lower grits to last for a set or two and can (legally) Abralon/Siiair em back to square 0 freshness okay...too much like work in my book.
Ciminelli had another 500 grit ball drilled and waiting this last tourney.
500/2000
1000/4000
500/4000
sometimes with polish and/or scuffed at bit...
...and like what happens when it sees friction...a bit of a bite.
Now will try progression up to 4000.
Take these unpredictable surface changes out of the equation (lane shine or whatever it's called?)
Abralon is king for us without bottomless pockets or a ball contract.
If you can get the lower grits to last for a set or two and can (legally) Abralon/Siiair em back to square 0 freshness okay...too much like work in my book.
Ciminelli had another 500 grit ball drilled and waiting this last tourney.
Click my green + rep button if this helps!
USBC Bronze Coach
PBA60-Radical Staffer wannabe
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PBA60-Radical Staffer wannabe
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Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
Curious what will happen after all those surfaces go up to 4k. Will they continue to get higher or just stop at 4k for 10 or more games?
Adrian
Right handed
PAP: 5 1/8 up 3/4
Speed: 15.5 mph (Kegel Specto)
Rev: 350 RPM
Axis tilt: 18-20*
Axis rotation: 60*
Right handed
PAP: 5 1/8 up 3/4
Speed: 15.5 mph (Kegel Specto)
Rev: 350 RPM
Axis tilt: 18-20*
Axis rotation: 60*
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Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
Another question: Does the surface scanner read the surface the same for a ball that was surfaced with skip a grit than for a regular surfaced ball?
For example: ball 1=500/4000, ball 2=500/1000/2000/4000
I believe that ball one would read the friction harder than ball 2 yet the tips of the peaks and valleys are both finished at 4000 for both balls. Would the scanner read these 2 balls differently?
Great video series BTW!
For example: ball 1=500/4000, ball 2=500/1000/2000/4000
I believe that ball one would read the friction harder than ball 2 yet the tips of the peaks and valleys are both finished at 4000 for both balls. Would the scanner read these 2 balls differently?
Great video series BTW!
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Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
In the third perception vs reality video they scanned them at zero, ten and twenty games. There was very little difference between ten and twenty, they seem to have stabilized around 4000
Senior Bowler
Tilt 23
Rot 20-40
Speed off hand 17-18
Rev 200-250
PAP 4 5/8 over 1 up RH'd 185+ On THS
Tilt 23
Rot 20-40
Speed off hand 17-18
Rev 200-250
PAP 4 5/8 over 1 up RH'd 185+ On THS
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Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
My question is:
If we scan two balls, one is 500/4000 and the other is 500/1000/2000/4000, will they both read 4000 in the scanner or would they read differently?
If we scan two balls, one is 500/4000 and the other is 500/1000/2000/4000, will they both read 4000 in the scanner or would they read differently?
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- spmcgivern
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Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
I think at that point you would have to evaluate the deviation in sizes of the peaks and valleys. I believe the 4000 reading is an average or a single value to describe the overall surface.
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Re: Radical does it again!! Perception vs. Reality 3
Just read Mo's recommendations for 2016 Open which, among other things recommends starting with an aggressive ball with a lot of surface then balling down. It would seem this study on how fast balls lose surface automatically takes care of that for you to some degree
Senior Bowler
Tilt 23
Rot 20-40
Speed off hand 17-18
Rev 200-250
PAP 4 5/8 over 1 up RH'd 185+ On THS
Tilt 23
Rot 20-40
Speed off hand 17-18
Rev 200-250
PAP 4 5/8 over 1 up RH'd 185+ On THS