THUMB ISSUES

Ask Mo Pinel and the bowling industry's best your general questions, and get straight answers.

Moderators: Mo Pinel, purduepaul, MathIsTruth, ballspinner

Forum rules
Ask Mo Pinel and the bowling industry's best your questions, and get straight answers.
This forum is moderated exclusively by Mo & Friends.
Locked
nano
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: March 30th, 2011, 5:38 am
Preferred Company: storm

THUMB ISSUES

Post by nano »

Good Day!!!

I have this issue on my thumb...
I have developed some kind of callous/mark on the front side of my thumb...
Can you please tell me what's the probable cause for this and what is the remedy???
Do i need to adjust my thumb pitch (laterally)???
Thanks a bunch in advance...
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
my stats...
right-handed
speed = 15-16mph
tilt = 12*-13*
rotation = 60*-65*
rev = 220-250rpm
PAP distance = 5 1/4 and 3/4 up
User avatar
russelldean
BCU Graduate Layouts
BCU Graduate Layouts
Posts: 877
Joined: February 14th, 2011, 6:09 am
THS Average: 230
Positive Axis Point: 5 up 1/4
Speed: 20
Rev Rate: 400
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 60
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: pasco wa

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by russelldean »

Excessive grip pressure. Get your grip checked by a quality pro shop professional. You need to be able to squeeze with the joint, not the thumb knuckle.
Please click the Green Button, If i have been helpful..
nano
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: March 30th, 2011, 5:38 am
Preferred Company: storm

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by nano »

thanks for the reply, russelldean...
currently i have a 1/8 reverse pitch on my thumb...
does making it zero or 1/8 forward pitch will solve the issue???
my stats...
right-handed
speed = 15-16mph
tilt = 12*-13*
rotation = 60*-65*
rev = 220-250rpm
PAP distance = 5 1/4 and 3/4 up
User avatar
river800
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 1056
Joined: November 19th, 2010, 12:11 am
THS Average: 202
Preferred Company: Storm/radical
Location: Coeur D A'lene, ID

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by river800 »

nano wrote:thanks for the reply, russelldean...
currently i have a 1/8 reverse pitch on my thumb...
does making it zero or 1/8 forward pitch will solve the issue???
What is your specs as in your full span as outlined in the wiki here? What is the lateral, forward or reverse for the fingers and what is the lateral left or right pitch for the thumb? We already have the 1/8 reverse so far for the thumb.
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
nano
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: March 30th, 2011, 5:38 am
Preferred Company: storm

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by nano »

attached is my specs...
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
my stats...
right-handed
speed = 15-16mph
tilt = 12*-13*
rotation = 60*-65*
rev = 220-250rpm
PAP distance = 5 1/4 and 3/4 up
J_w73
Member
Member
Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
THS Average: 210
Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by J_w73 »

I would say it is from squeezing. Make sure your thumb hole is not too loose that you have to squeeze. Also, don't make it too tight where it will cause that type of friction callous/burn. If the thumb hole size is ok then try something else. If your spans are correct based on the wiki and you are not hanging up at all, I would say to try to go more forward in your thumb pitch to help the ball hang onto you so that you don't have to squeeze.
Last edited by J_w73 on November 4th, 2015, 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
User avatar
MegaMav
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4694
Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
THS Average: 225
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by MegaMav »

russelldean wrote:Excessive grip pressure. Get your grip checked by a quality pro shop professional. You need to be able to squeeze with the joint, not the thumb knuckle.
Nailed it.
We can say no more.
Likely a poorly shaped thumb hole plus a stretched span.
TomaHawk
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 587
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by TomaHawk »

Looking at the shape of your thumb, wider at the knuckle then tapers very quickly from knuckle to the tip of your thumb, your natural tendency is to squeeze the ball as the ball is leaving your thumb. You need a tapered thumb hole at the least. The under the palm, right lateral in your thumb pitch, is causing excessive friction just as the thumb prepares to totally exit the hole.

Outside of the obvious, have the thumb hole redrilled, you can layer cork or tape at the bottom of the hole creating a wedge. This should help you resist the urge to squeeze the ball from the very first moment the thumb starts to leave the ball.
JMerrell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 1440
Joined: August 1st, 2010, 1:45 pm
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/8" x 1/2" up
Speed: 16 mph @ foul line
Rev Rate: 230
Axis Tilt: 20
Axis Rotation: 50
Location: Florence, Ky

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by JMerrell »

Coach's Perspective:

THE POOP STRIPE

I have seen this stripe on the tip of the thumb before.

The athlete had an excellent fit and used tape in the thumb hole to maintain constant grip pressure from day today.

However, two other variables came into play.

1) The athlete typically has the hand positioned too much on top of the ball during release.

2) A tendency to relax the hand too much entering the release area which in turn allows for premature release of the thumb out of the hole.

This results in the weight of the ball being held by the tip of the thumb through part of the down swing and through release……thus the bruising of the thumb tip.

The athlete in the attachment has 5/8” forward pitch in the thumb and a great fit, just not the best of hand positions regardless of the wrist support.

The wrist support was eventually discarded, the athlete gained better feel throughout the swing and the thumb stayed in the ball longer............the Poop Stripe disappeared.

This is not to disregard the possibility the poster needs a better fit.........just all my regular students have great fits and I must look deeper to solve issues.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-JMerrell
"Simplify the Motion.....Maximize the Results"
TomaHawk
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 587
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by TomaHawk »

JMerrell wrote:Coach's Perspective:

THE POOP STRIPE

I have seen this stripe on the tip of the thumb before.

The athlete had an excellent fit and used tape in the thumb hole to maintain constant grip pressure from day today.

However, two other variables came into play.

1) The athlete typically has the hand positioned too much on top of the ball during release.

2) A tendency to relax the hand too much entering the release area which in turn allows for premature release of the thumb out of the hole.

This results in the weight of the ball being held by the tip of the thumb through part of the down swing and through release……thus the bruising of the thumb tip.

The athlete in the attachment has 5/8” forward pitch in the thumb and a great fit, just not the best of hand positions regardless of the wrist support.

The wrist support was eventually discarded, the athlete gained better feel throughout the swing and the thumb stayed in the ball longer............the Poop Stripe disappeared.

This is not to disregard the possibility the poster needs a better fit.........just all my regular students have great fits and I must look deeper to solve issues.
Interesting perspective....

The OP's pap, 5 1/4> 3/4^ somewhat indicating the hand is in a pretty good position at the point of release. He is definitely squeezing the thumb though, that is obvious. A bruise on the tip of the thumb of this sort is fairly rare and generally caused by anatomical issues in terms of the shape of the thumb.

As mentioned, this particular type of bruising is the direct result of too much pressure on the thumb. The problem, most of the thumb pressure is applied at exactly the point of release when the tip of the thumb is at the very top of the hole. It's caused by the neurological sensation, the ball is leaving the hand too soon. The meaty part of the thumb (top and middle) suddenly becomes much smaller toward the tip of thumb. Result, a bruise on the tip of the thumb as if the person had been trying to light a cigarette lighter for an hour.

Actually, I haven't seen this type of bruising in some time. The last fellow had a pap of 6> 0^, a very, very good bowler. He won 5 or 6 scratch titles in one year. We tried just about every pitch in the thumb and also in the fingers, trying to eliminate the bruise. Ultimately, we used much more reverse in the thumb and fingers than would be considered standard. It helped, but in the final analysis, it was the wedge at the bottom of the thumb hole that totally eliminated the issue, helping to provide him with super clean release.
User avatar
MeNoRevs
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 305
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 11:28 pm
THS Average: 120
Positive Axis Point: 5 3/4 x 1 ^
Preferred Company: I prefer them all
Location: Southern Maryland

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by MeNoRevs »

TomaHawk wrote:
The OP's pap, 5 1/4> 3/4^ somewhat indicating the hand is in a pretty good position at the point of release. He is definitely squeezing the thumb though, that is obvious. A bruise on the tip of the thumb of this sort is fairly rare and generally caused by anatomical issues in terms of the shape of the thumb.
So you can tell by someones PAP if their hand is in good position or not?

My pap is 3 1/2 over, 1 inch up. What does that say about me?
TomaHawk
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 587
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by TomaHawk »

MeNoRevs wrote:
So you can tell by someones PAP if their hand is in good position or not?

My pap is 3 1/2 over, 1 inch up. What does that say about me?
The pap gives us some indication of the cupped / cocked position of the hand during the release point.

There are effective bowlers with all sorts of hand angles, bent arms, foot alignments, and various shoulder positions at the foul line. If you''re not having any problems, stick with what you do. If you are having issues, maybe a new thread can be started or you could seek a qualified instructor in your area.
User avatar
MeNoRevs
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 305
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 11:28 pm
THS Average: 120
Positive Axis Point: 5 3/4 x 1 ^
Preferred Company: I prefer them all
Location: Southern Maryland

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by MeNoRevs »

TomaHawk wrote:
The pap gives us some indication of the cupped / cocked position of the hand during the release point.

There are effective bowlers with all sorts of hand angles, bent arms, foot alignments, and various shoulder positions at the foul line. If you''re not having any problems, stick with what you do. If you are having issues, maybe a new thread can be started or you could seek a qualified instructor in your area.
I didnt ask that, you said before that a certain PAP means that he is in a good position. What does my PAP say, please do not ignore the question.
TomaHawk
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 587
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by TomaHawk »

MeNoRevs wrote:
I didnt ask that, you said before that a certain PAP means that he is in a good position. What does my PAP say, please do not ignore the question.
Please excuse me if you feel like you were ignored. I thought my answer was sufficient in terms of addressing the OP's thumb issue. If you would like further discussion, please do not PM me. Start a new thread so that we may all benefit.
User avatar
Qman
Member
Member
Posts: 548
Joined: October 15th, 2012, 5:14 pm
THS Average: 185
Positive Axis Point: 4 1/8 1/2 up
Rev Rate: 280
Axis Tilt: 23
Axis Rotation: 20
Heavy Oil Ball: Roto Grip Sinister
Medium Oil Ball: IQ Tour Solid
Light Oil Ball: Rack Attack Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical/Storm/Roto Grip
Location: Montevideo Minnesota

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by Qman »

Looks like to much forward pitch, am I wrong? I had to much forward in my fingers on a Hammer Vicious Attack and my tips were burning up.
Adapt or perish!

PAP 4 1/8, 1/2 up
Axis Rotation 20
Axis Tilt 23
Rev rate 280
Speed Dominate / Rev Challenged
14-16mph at monitor
User avatar
snick
BCU Graduate Layouts
BCU Graduate Layouts
Posts: 759
Joined: August 31st, 2014, 8:00 pm
THS Average: 196
Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 5.5625" x .625 up
Speed: 17 off hand
Rev Rate: 360
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Physix
Medium Oil Ball: Storm Streetfight
Light Oil Ball: Rotogrip Hustle Pearl
Preferred Company: Rotogrip
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by snick »

My first impression was too much reverse pitch, accompanied by excessive squeezing with the thumb tip.
Part of it is fit and part is the gripping technique.
Benchmark Bowling Pro Shop
Byron

RH
PAP: 5.5625 x .625 up
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 17º
nano
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: March 30th, 2011, 5:38 am
Preferred Company: storm

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by nano »

Gripping is the culprit.
Previously I had a 1/8 reverse pitch on my thumb.
I had the feeling that the ball will fall off early on my release hence i tend to grip it and the thumb sliding against the edge of the hole thus creating that stripe.
Now i am using 1/8 forward pitch and the feeling of the ball slipping early on my hand is now gone.
Thank you all for your inputs and recommendations.
my stats...
right-handed
speed = 15-16mph
tilt = 12*-13*
rotation = 60*-65*
rev = 220-250rpm
PAP distance = 5 1/4 and 3/4 up
TomaHawk
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 587
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by TomaHawk »

So, two good notes. First, you've fixed your issue. Fantastic! Can't imagine what it would be like to roll a ball with a bruise of that nature.

Second, had a chance to converse a little with JMerrell. Great guy and a pleasure to communicate with!
User avatar
VLe
BCU Graduate Layouts
BCU Graduate Layouts
Posts: 196
Joined: April 15th, 2015, 7:07 am
Speed: 17
Rev Rate: 320
Axis Tilt: 20
Axis Rotation: 55
Preferred Company: Radical
Location: Finland

Re: THUMB ISSUES

Post by VLe »

I've had a lot of similar problems. Actually, my thumb shape is pretty much similar to yours. What is most likely causing this for me is not the grip pressure, but the geometry of the thumb. From the thumb joint towards the nail (in the palm side) the thumb shapes like a potato and the skin is squeezing at place where the callouses appears to come even when there is no excessive pressure on the grip. Making the thumbhole very tight with tape only makes this worse because it only adds more squeeze to the spot where the callous is.

Therefore the solution at least for me is to use tiered thumbhole as suggested before. You can try tiered taping. Correctly taped (tiered) thumbhole made my callous (or blood blister) disappear very quickly. Since then I have tested different kind of drillings and every time I dont use tiered taping on the thumbhole these marks come back very quickly. I attached some old picture of my thumb where these marks are visible.

Here is little information of this type of problem also:
http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/sto ... _3_btm.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Right Handed
PAP 4 3/8" x 0"
60* rotation
17.5* tilt
320-360 rev rate
17mph off hand
Locked