PIN to PAP distances for.....

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TMack
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PIN to PAP distances for.....

Post by TMack »

As a general rule......what are good PIN to PAP distances for High and Low track players. On asymmetrical and symmetrical balls. I believe I remember 3 - 4 1/2" for high tracks, but not if that was for both asymmetric and symmetric.

Thanks,
Tim
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Re: PIN to PAP distances for.....

Post by The Kid »

I just typed a very long explanation and my internet quit... Here it goes again!

Pin-to-PAP distances correlate to tilt, which is related to the length of a track, but not necessarily whether it is low or not. For instance, a high track bowler might have a higher tilt or a low track bowler might have a lower tilt (although these are tough to do!).

Assuming that:

HIGH tilt -> SHORT track = LOW track
LOW tilt -> LONG track = HIGH track

LOW track:
Symmetrical: 3-4"
Asymmetrical: 4+" (up to 6 1/4")

HIGH track:
Symmetrical: 4-5"
Asymmetrical: 1 1/2-3 1/2"

The reason, if you're interested, is that high flaring Pin-to-PAPs (Sym.=3-4", Asm.=4+") burn tilt faster. This makes the ball transition from skin to hook sooner. This prevents high tilt bowlers from experiencing under-reaction. The opposite prevents low tilt bowlers from experiencing roll-out, which decreases carry.

Hope this helps!
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Re: PIN to PAP distances for.....

Post by Mo Pinel »

The Kid wrote:I just typed a very long explanation and my internet quit... Here it goes again!

Pin-to-PAP distances correlate to tilt, which is related to the length of a track, but not necessarily whether it is low or not. For instance, a high track bowler might have a higher tilt or a low track bowler might have a lower tilt (although these are tough to do!).

Assuming that:

HIGH tilt -> SHORT track = LOW track
LOW tilt -> LONG track = HIGH track

LOW track:
Symmetrical: 3-4"
Asymmetrical: 4+" (up to 6 1/4")

HIGH track:
Symmetrical: 4 1/2-5 1/2"
Asymmetrical: 1 1/2-3 1/2"

The reason, if you're interested, is that high flaring Pin-to-PAPs (Sym.=3-4", Asm.=4+") burn tilt faster. This makes the ball transition from skin to hook sooner. This prevents high tilt bowlers from experiencing under-reaction. The opposite prevents low tilt bowlers from experiencing roll-out, which decreases carry.

Hope this helps!
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Re: PIN to PAP distances for.....

Post by Triplicate »

Knowledge is fun! 8-)
High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (2), 11 in a row (18)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
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Re: PIN to PAP distances for.....

Post by Athery »

Triplicate wrote:Knowledge is fun! 8-)
And it made you thirst for more! :lol:

A very valuable topic. I have always wanted to learn about this (low track vs High track) but unable to express the question to my English language limitation.
TMack: thanks for asking and The Kid: Thanks for answering it.
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Re: PIN to PAP distances for.....

Post by Triplicate »

Something to ponder... The more you know, the more you realize you don't know.

In my life and my search for knowledge I have often found out that, yes, I get some answers, but this same exercise also brings up many more questions! :shock:
High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (2), 11 in a row (18)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
HOF induction - 2 (1 Local and 1 Provincial)
Is this helpful? Then Click the Image on the bottom right.
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Re: PIN to PAP distances for.....

Post by Mo Pinel »

Triplicate wrote:Something to ponder... The more you know, the more you realize you don't know.

In my life and my search for knowledge I have often found out that, yes, I get some answers, but this same exercise also brings up many more questions! :shock:

In any research project, the closer you are to the beginning of that project, the more questions that arise. The closer you are to the end of the project, the fewer questions arise and the more answers appear. I've experienced this many times. The smartest people sometimes are the ones that know what they DON"T know.
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Re: PIN to PAP distances for.....

Post by fufu »

The Kid wrote:I just typed a very long explanation and my internet quit... Here it goes again!

Pin-to-PAP distances correlate to tilt, which is related to the length of a track, but not necessarily whether it is low or not. For instance, a high track bowler might have a higher tilt or a low track bowler might have a lower tilt (although these are tough to do!).

Assuming that:

HIGH tilt -> SHORT track = LOW track
LOW tilt -> LONG track = HIGH track

LOW track:
Symmetrical: 3-4"
Asymmetrical: 4+" (up to 6 1/4")

HIGH track:
Symmetrical: 4-5"
Asymmetrical: 1 1/2-3 1/2"

The reason, if you're interested, is that high flaring Pin-to-PAPs (Sym.=3-4", Asm.=4+") burn tilt faster. This makes the ball transition from skin to hook sooner. This prevents high tilt bowlers from experiencing under-reaction. The opposite prevents low tilt bowlers from experiencing roll-out, which decreases carry.

Hope this helps!
Just so I'm clear.........

Low tilt:
Assy: 3 3/4 to 2
Sym: 4 to 5(????)
--I've found the opposite. On sym cored balls, I've had great success drilling 50-70 x 3 1/4 x 30-35 for low tilt, low axis rotation players.
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Re: PIN to PAP distances for.....

Post by Mo Pinel »

fufu wrote: Just so I'm clear.........

Low tilt:
Assy: 3 3/8 to 2
Sym: 4 1/2 to 5 1/2

--I've found the opposite. On sym cored balls, I've had great success drilling 50-70 x 3 1/4 x 30-35 for low tilt, low axis rotation players.

My suggestions are in white. Your success with work unless they're strongly rev dominant. My pin to PAP distances are used to reduce flare to get the ball down the lane for rev dominant bowlers. 3 1/4" pin to PAP distance maximizes flare on symmetrical balls. Your suggestion definitely gives a good shape to the ball motion and maximizes the ball reaction for low tilt/low rotation players.
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Re: PIN to PAP distances for.....

Post by The Kid »

I agree with Mo (if I understood him correctly).

I think the look on the lanes depends a lot on speed and rev dominance/equivalence.

If someone is speed dominant, a high flaring layout will help the ball transition earlier (just like reducing the angle sums). This is probably why 3-4" Pin-to-PAPs have worked for you with low tilt bowlers- it gives them more reaction.

However, I've found that even with speed dominant bowlers, these high flaring pin positions can be more farm than good. For instance, if the lanes are torched, it becomes much more difficult for the bowler to find a good look.

I think this is why it is easier to use low flaring Pin-to-PAPs with low tilt bowlers to increase skid. It's easier to adjust the angle sum (lower for speed dominant bowlers and/or heavier patterns) than to adjust the pin distance.
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Re: PIN to PAP distances for.....

Post by Mo Pinel »

The Kid wrote:I agree with Mo (if I understood him correctly).

I think the look on the lanes depends a lot on speed and rev dominance/equivalence.

If someone is speed dominant, a high flaring layout will help the ball transition earlier (just like reducing the angle sums). This is probably why 3-4" Pin-to-PAPs have worked for you with low tilt bowlers- it gives them more reaction.

However, I've found that even with speed dominant bowlers, these high flaring pin positions can be more farm than good. For instance, if the lanes are torched, it becomes much more difficult for the bowler to find a good look.

I think this is why it is easier to use low flaring Pin-to-PAPs with low tilt bowlers to increase skid. It's easier to adjust the angle sum (lower for speed dominant bowlers and/or heavier patterns) than to adjust the pin distance.

It depends on the total diff. of the ball being drilled.
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Re: PIN to PAP distances for.....

Post by The Kid »

Lower total differentials = medium to high flaring pin-to-PAP for low tilt (especially speed dominant)
Higher total differentials = lower flaring pin-to-PAP for low tilt

Is this correct?
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Re: PIN to PAP distances for.....

Post by Mo Pinel »

The Kid wrote:Lower total differentials = medium to high flaring pin-to-PAP for low tilt (especially speed dominant)
Higher total differentials = lower flaring pin-to-PAP for low tilt

Is this correct?
YES!
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